31 replies to this topic

[Jaepee Dee]

We'd really like to know what you thought, so please leave us some feedback. Thanks.

[SilverWyrm]

Awesome class, had a blast!

[Sanpaku Deska]

Excellent class -- packed with stuff I wanted and needed to know! Bravo Zulu to JaePee and Dark!

I would have enjoyed more time and more practice. I realize this is difficult when we coordinate with another simultaneous class, but I can dream.....

The diagrams in the article were secured -- it'd be nice to see them.

Everything else was superb.

Regards.

BASIC - 1403091800
WOLFPACKS-2103091800
ADVANCED-0404091800
COV-OPS 1804090001

[livia]

The class was excellent, no doubt about that. Very good material, in terms of both scope and depth, and very well presented indeed.

To be honest with myself, I will have to practise a lot before I attempt any real scout work, though. This is much harder than I had imagined it to be, and my flying and communication skills are sadly lacking, as I found out tonight. No matter, I'll just have to go and see what I can do about that.

Thanks very much for giving the class and for the permission to participate, and please keep up the good work!

[SAI_Peregrinus]

Excellent class, taught what it needed to teach & gave good practice. A few things to add: Again, linking my Flashcards script. It's a python script, you need python (from http://python.org/download/ on windows/mac, your package manager on Linux.) http://dl.eve-files..../Flashcards.zip For Linux/BSD/OSX/other UNIX: Set up flash card sets in $HOME/.flashcards/filename where each filename defines an array called cards, like this: cards = [ [ "1", "one" ], [ "2", "two" ], ] It will look for .flashcards/all as a default, or you can pass the filename as an argument, e.g. flashcard shortlist will use the cards defined in $HOME/.flashcard/shortlist. For windows, IIRC, $HOME should be your user directory. So, by default, C:\Documents and Settings\USERNAME\.flashcards\CARDS. So make a directory called .flashcards, and put the file called "all" in there, since it contains the ship flashcards. The rest of the program (flashcards.py and flashcardsgui.py) go wherever you want, I'd put them in C:\Program Files\Flashcards\. Putting more files in your .flashcards directory lets you make flashcard sets for whatever you want. EG Just HACS or Just HICs. It's a pretty simple program, but good if you want to FC or be a covops pilot. Example for windows directory structure: C:\Documents and Settings\SAI\.flashcards\all C:\Program Files\Flashcards\flashcards.py C:\Program Files\Flashcards\flashcardsgui.py With python installed you should be able to double-click flashcardsgui.py to run it. If not, open a command-line (start->run->type cmd), navigate to the flashcards program directory, and type "python flashcardsgui.py". For Linux/BSD/MacOSX/Unix, you should know what your Home directory is. Follow the basic instructions. On bookmarks: I use the following in any region I live in: Bookmarks 100, 200, and 300km off of every gate, aligned to each and every other gate, in every system of all constellations & paths I am normally in. So, for example, EWOK-K would get 18 bookmarks, sets of 3 at each gate, pointing at each other gate. At least 1 safe spot in every system. At least 1 instaundock, off grid. This makes it effectively impossible for anyone using them to be caught in a bubble. I use the following when getting bookmarks ready to invade a region... 1 safespot near the center. Ideally near a planet central to the system, more importantly not at the same celestial as any station, gate, or hostile jump-bridge, or cyno-jammer POS. Safes near the sun can work. Sniper points Above, belowe, sun-side, sun far-side, at 100, 150, 175, 200, and 250 from every gate and station. Extra 175s in various unaligned directions. More if desired. At 175 out radially from any jump-bridge or cynojammer POS, through the jammer. At least 160km from any warp disruption batteries. 1 BM at 25-50km and another at 175km directly in front of the undock of every station & outpost. Seeing a bunch of RR-Pests loading up the Quake L because the enemy has 0 transversal is a beautiful thing. 1 reference point for every tac mentioned above. This is aligned with that point & the central, 150km behind the point. This lets you warp to the reference, load grid, warp to the tac, and be pre-aligned to your central safe. Extra deep-safes, >14.4AU from any celestial. This, of course, leads to a good 10k bookmarks being made in a reasonably-sized enemy constellation, and takes about a week to do. But your sniper fleets will love you. I use folders to keep my P&P window from lagging too much, BMs in folders seem to load when you open the folder. Then again, I never close P&P or Scanner. Only a covops or cloaky recon can do this well, and covops is far better at it. EDIT: I was assigned to lead some other covops pilots around. I was a student, & had no prior warning. While I have some covops experience, you couldn't know that. I feel I should have been asked, as if I hadn't had experience things might not have gone as well, and I couldn't have answered the questions of the other students assigned to me. That said, it was fun to lead, and I'm always glad to help, but I would have liked a bit of warning.

[SilverWyrm]

We must put a huge emphasis on comms discipline and protocol. We should all know about battlecomms and how to deal with that. Maybe put in a section about using the intel channels for non-vital info.

[Adarrye]

Sorry if i was late and bailed without notice before the roam. I was in the middle of a "almost breakup" situation with my GF. Wasn't feeling like coming and she came back earlier than plan. Will try alumni next time.

[Caldak]

You guys did well.Not everything you found was used, but its good to have had you out there. On a whole a good class. (Over 7 Regions covered) All the same we got. BattleShips - 6 Stealth Bombers - 4 T2 Heavy Assault - 3 Other - 3

[AlarDarkwind]

......

EDIT: I was assigned to lead some other covops pilots around. I was a student, & had no prior warning. While I have some covops experience, you couldn't know that. I feel I should have been asked, as if I hadn't had experience things might not have gone as well, and I couldn't have answered the questions of the other students assigned to me. That said, it was fun to lead, and I'm always glad to help, but I would have liked a bit of warning.

I have to apologize for that one SAI, during the class with so much going on I thought that you volunteered for it in a earlier question I fielded to the fleet. Looking back I can see that you didn't and that I made a few too many assumptions. I am glad that it turned out ok for you in the end and I have to really and truly thank you for helping out despite everything.

Also thank you to all the other guys that stepped up and took on the groups. I know it was a good bit to ask of all of you but from the responses so far and how the class worked out it really does help to have involvement between the CovOps on the more personal level that the 3 to 4 man group gives you.

[Jev]

First thing, the classwork was great, and I totally agree that a guided practical is the way to learn the new scan over reading and theory. On a slightly more critical note, I think you need to work on the transition into recon work for wolfpacks. Jumping in the deep end is the only way to learn this game but this was a rough transition due to the lack of time and organisational challenge of dropping 50 WP students and 20 green covops pilots together. Not surprisingly we got off to an undisciplined start which unfortunately set the tone of the night slightly. Lots of covops students were in the wrong place and not knowing what they were meant to be doing, as Al'ar did his herding cats trick and created some level of order out of chaos. Hanging out in 93PI beings eyes and working to create warp ins was very educational, but then running off solo towards Tribute looking for targets was just too much for someone who has never gone solo in 0.0 before to do at all competently. Maybe it was just that it was a quiet night, but I didn't seem to be accomplishing much, and wasn't even sure if I was completely missing the opportunities Caldak needed from his recons. I would suggest raising the price of covops significantly, lowering the numbers and giving each student a veteran covops partner who at first they just follow and then gradually take over the responsibilities over a few hours. Also for people who lack the experience of travelling solo in 0.0 just do a little covops frig tour with no attached fleet through hostile territory where the objective is just to survive, to show it's not that hard and raise comfort levels with that side of the job. Probably would have gone better if my ISP hadn't died right as my buzzard landed and decloaked on a gate, handing some lucky Russian a cheap kill. Can't believe I have been throwing harpies and kitsunes at Agony roams against all sensible advice but the only t2 I actually lost so far was the covops :sad:

[Tlak Chilk]

Thanks for a great class. A few things I figured I would throw out there: I would include a Warp Scrambler as a potential defensive module to fit in the mid slots. I evaded a very lucky Interceptor who decloaked me today by scramming him and then MWDing out of his point range. Might not work everytime but is saved me today. I love the pairing of the students with mentors for the practical portion though I get the idea some of the less experienced students could have benefitted from some low sec Cloak+MWD practice before being sent out on their own. Also, in my experience the single greatest killer of Covert Ops ships is accidentally being warped with or to by the fleet. Just something for Covert Ops pilots to keep in mind.

[Pesets]

This was wrong on so many levels... Ok, just kidding, it was pretty awesome as usual, but i think a bunch of stuff could be improved.

First of all, the probing practice as part of the lecture felt like spoonfeeding and waste of time. The new probing system is way simpler, in a way, and doesn't even require a covops frigate. Heck, you can do it with a noobships In a covops class, i'd expect to learn various tricks of the trade to probe more efficiently, but those could be covered in wiki. If someone took all that time to skill up for covops, i'd take it for granted [s]he has figured out at least basic ways of scanning. And if not (and the wiki wasn't enough), then one hour of practice probably won't do it either.

One thing i feel could be nice would be some practice of getting through camps. Like, finding a couple of backwater 0.0 systems, setting up a "mock" camp on a gate - with a bubble, an interceptor or two, and maybe some cans; and have covops students try to get through that without getting tackled by the inties. I'm not sure how manageable that is in terms of setting up, but i feel it could be way more useful than probing practice, for one thing.

Regarding the roam... I felt kinda lost throughout it, to be honest. Of course a big part of it is the fact that i'm a noob at this , and i guess it could also be attributed to ironing out quirks (Vent wasn't working as expected, apparently, which led to quite a bit of confusion in the beginning). But even later on it still didn't feel very organized. I got the impressions that covops students were just kinda randomly rambling around the region. I mean, our group's leader actually gave us specific places to go, and i assume so did other leaders, but there must've been a lot of overlap because i spotted more covops students in those areas than targets themselves...

Also annoying was having to communicate with Al'ar through the intel chat, while simultaneously trying to listen to the FC, move around, and not die. I'd like to think that was because of the Vent problem, because trying to share a chat channel with 20 more people for the purposes of recon coordination is just wrong. A lot of times i wasn't even aware i was told to go somewhere, because by the time i looked at the chat window, what was directed to me was already scrolled out of sight. I think this kind of stuff should be done on voice, if at all possible, and then perhaps "hierarchically aggregated" by the group leads, and then by the "scoutmaster" to be presented to the FC.

I'm kinda torn though, because the fact that i was pretty much on my own has taught me a lot more than i would learn if it was "properly coordinated". I mean, we had 20 covops students and about 10 Agony leaders. Well, maybe less, but really, even 20 covops by themselves is way too much of a lot. You can just put one in every other system and you've got the whole region covered. But on the other hand, that's not really how it's done; usually you are pretty much on your own, and sitting there watching your own system doesn't really give much of an idea about what covops is like in real fleet situation. But on yet another hand, i personally felt kinda useless as covops; i hardly ever got to make a proper report (and the few times i did, i borked it up mercilessly because of lack of practice ). I was also moving around very slowly, because i didn't have the bookmarks, but perhaps that's just my problem...

I'm not sure how feasible it is to combine Covops with Wolfpacks like that at all, to be honest. My impression is that Covops students weren't really getting proper practice anyways, and weren't as much a recon value for Wolfpacks class as a coordination headache for the "scoutmasters". And again, for the practice of "how it would be in real life" you'd probably need a fleet for every two or three covops students. Besides, if they were separate, i would be able to attend Wolfpacks as an alumni

Maybe the roam could consist of students just roaming through various systems, without a fleet, taking turns on giving reports; and the group lead would provide feedback on what you forgot to include this time Doesn't even have to be 0.0 for that matter, in hisec you'd actually have more to report Giving reports, along with getting through camps, are perhaps the most important things you could practice in the Covops class. Maybe make a separate group for those who want to practice probing instead of the roam (though again, that might as well be a separate "miniclass", having nothing to do with Covops).

[Sagantor]

Excellent class as far as the theoretical part was concerned. The roaming part was somewhat cahotic although it improved with time. However, i think its there where improvements are necessary. Maybee the groups should be organised in separate squads and squad members should be assigned gates or stations and only change systems when so instructed by the squad leader or on orders by the class instructors or the fc. Otherwise overachievers, as was the case, just move arround systems trying to get near the action and clutter comms with unecessary reports, not following the "common sense" advice given by the class instructuctors and which cannot be stressed upon enough. Comms discipline is another aspect which should be insisted upon by the instructors and once more common sense should prevail.

[Niven Helmer]

Overall an good evening. I agree with Pesets. There seemed to be some pilots on the covops course who were unfamiliar with the basics of scanning. Personally I think that this sort of course should be more advanced than telling the pilots the basics of how to move probes around. That said, there was some valuable info. Newly fledged cov-ops pilots tend to move slowly (especialy when you have few bookmarks in those systems) so having a lot of us feeding the Wolfpack info was not such a bad idea. Agree with other comments that the command & reporting lines could do with a little more thought. It was also disappointing when my squad scouted out a long way ahead of the fleet, only to have it turn round and go away from us again - but I guess that's the life of a covops pilot I was also hoping for a bit more guidance on the directional scanner - I know some Agony pilots can recon an entire system in seconds with that thing - I'd love to get tips on how! Finally, some diagrams about the triangulation and drop points on the wiki would help! Great flying with Agony again O7 Niven

[AlarDarkwind]

For all the Covert Ops students the pictures on the PVP COVOPS Probing article are now fixed. Sorry for the confusion.

[Silas]

Class was very educational and though there is room for improvement nothing really comes to mind right now. I lost connection for a good hour or so right after the roam started and was pretty much just running around on my own sort of lost after that. Of course, that's not the instructors fault But I can't recall being assigned a cov ops team, it may have happened while I was offline, and I didn't wanna bother anyone in the middle of the roam. But all in all, a great class, and a good (though very confusing) roam

[Pesets]

For all the Covert Ops students the pictures on the PVP COVOPS Probing article are now fixed. Sorry for the confusion.

I must say, i'm not sure how tetrahedron is different from "triangular pyramid". I mean, they're setup differently, but in the end they're kinda the same thing. Also, there is octahedron shape (basically just six probes along each direction), it's farly straightforward but covers a lot of volume and could be included for completeness.

Question - there are no students listed as "graduated" in neither Covops nor Wolfpacks thread. Are graduations now listed somewhere else, or are they just going to be updated later? Or does it matter for Covops anyways? Seminars don't seem to be prerequisites for anything, so graduation probably doesn't matter a whole lot, but it could be useful for alumni verification if nothing else.

[Aizen Intaki]

I really enjoyed this class; despite the initial chaos and our issues with compromised intelligence, it was one of the best times I've had in an AU class yet. The positive: - About an hour into the roam, after things had settled somewhat, I started having a blast. The negative: - The theory portion went a bit long, which contributed to the initial chaos. - The probing materials were more helpful than the class practical. Suggestions: - Place more emphasis on reading the course materials with respect to probing prior to class, allowing the teacher to gloss over the topic more easily in the practical. For instance, start the class out by having people probe out the teacher in a Nonni safe spot rather than sit in station. Many of the things discussed in the first portion would make more sense if taught out of station (overview settings specific to covops or probing filters, for instance). - Perhaps do more with a small AU gang as part of the practical. Examples: Take over a 0.0 gate, and have the covops group run it as a 'friendly gate camp' (locks, scrams, etc... but without covops ships going pop). As this in and of itself isn't eventful enough to merit taking over the gate, you could have bubbles and AU members placed to challenge students with setting up successful drop-ins and such. - Start the class earlier, with the idea that it should finish at least a half hour before the accompanying class so that covops groups can be assigned and pilots can get to their initial destinations before intel is requested by the FC. The initial union of the two classes was probably messier than it needed to be. - Consider smaller covops class sizes (perhaps half as many students at a time), but run the classes in conjunction with other classes more often. One student per veteran AU pilot would be ideal, but one student per veteran AU pilot or Alumni might be more realistic.

[Konae]

I enjoyed the theory, the safe practice and the live action. I managed to survived a couple of camps and bubbles and loved jumping safely all around 0.0. Wonderful feeling. What you told us about how to move in 0.0 definitely paid off. OK, in the end I died, I got uncloaked by the fleet when we crossed on a gate, and some pirates following the fleet uncloacked and locked me just as the fleet was warping out. It happened in a heartbeat. A single salvo smashed my ship, that taught me how fragile cov.op ships are without our cloak. I should have warped out as soon as my cloack was gone... I don't mind the loss of my nice ship, I knew I could lose it and consider it part of the class fee. Still, it is amazing how a noob like me survived for so long out there. Some points I felt could be improved in the class: - I got confused when the stated name of my squad leader wasn't the same as his screen name. We should be careful to use the pilot's names. Once that was cleared up it went fine. - More emphasis should be put on the students memorizing some basic ship types and a list of the most important types could be provided. I had an alphabetically ordered list of all combat ships by my side, but it is a long list and it took me quite a while to figure out what the hell a Purifier or a Zealot were before posting any intelligence. This was a bit frustrating, but maybe all we need is practice. Other than that, I loved the class. The FC was right putting some order in our initially chaotic intel reports, but you guys sorted that out and managed to have a fleet of noobs moving in 0.0 with intel provided by noob covop pilots. Amazing feat. Will be back as alumni.

[muffcobb]

Excellent class. As much as I agree or disagree with a lot of the comments made here, I do have to interject that everyone who takes this class has a far different experience with the covops role than everyone else who takes the same class. My interpretation of what Agony is doing is playing to the lowest common denominator of student experience. Remember the first time you pvp'd in a frigate, then a cruiser, then a battleship, etc. etc. Each one kind of built on itself and the follow on was easier to learn because of the base experience. Then remember the first time you used a covops and took the role of combat instigator instead of combat initiator. They are vastly different. Being alone and on point for the first time brings back that adrenalized uncomfortable feeling you got the first time you were with a group and shooting at people that wanted desparately to be on your kill mail. And you probably already understand the basics of combat better when starting covops, but the theory itself is different, which makes the covops seminar more like the pvp-basic course from that perspective than the wolfpacks or advanced courses. From what I've learned (and thoroughly enjoyed), covops is about patience more than anything followed a close second by keeping your wits (and situatonal awareness) about you. If I get lucky enough to stumble on an enemy fleet in my covops during the roam and that fleet then gets wiped out by my fleet then Yay! If I don't, then I, at least, get to enjoy the view of all the pretty systems and make some more bookmarks. Either way, I'm not on the kill mails..... It seems that when Agony is teaching basic for instance, they are teaching the class as though you have never pvp'd before. And they are right for probably a third of the fleet or more. It was true in my case when I first took the class. I think the people here who are providing feedback are coming from their own perspective, which is ok, but kind of short sighted in the scope of the class since Agony has to teach everyone, not just you. This is only the second covops class they have taught (I think) since all of the covops changes. It does have a little ways to go and we are discussing that here, but at least try to take a step out of yourself and talk about the whole process and how it would apply to MOST people, not just what you would like to see for yourself and your experience level. For instance, I had some probing experience, but still learned a bit from the probing practical, which filled in a hole or two in my knowledge..... What may seem like an irrelevent and small training item to you, may be the missing link for someone else. I say keep the stuff that is being covered in there now for sure as it will make everyone more complete from BOTTOM to top. If you can work some of the suggestions that have been made here into the course in a class length timely manner then awesome! But definitely keep it kind of basic. I mean I can learn guitar just by picking it up and practicing strumming, but getting the basic music theory WILL make me a better guitar player in the long run. How should you hold the pick, what are the notes, etc. etc. As far as class size goes, what can you do? Twenty IS a small class relative to the number wanting to take the course, but there are cat herding issues with even that few new students. I'm sure it would be awesome to have a class of 5-10 with my own personal Agony guru leading me around, but how long would I have to wait to get into that class if I hadn't taken it yet? My suggestion is to assume alumni can get around themselves. I enjoyed that immensly. Alumni are not instructors, but they could probably help a great deal with students..... Someone mentioned it here already, but I would say double or triple the PRICE of the covops class. This way you will get the people who are serious about it and not just trying to take every class for the benefit of their Agony forum signature. I would have paid way more for covops..... There are some good suggestions previously stated. I like the idea of running through the fake gate camps..... Of course, the logistics, manpower, and possibly the time requirements of that are greater for Agony. Maybe to reduce Agony manpower (and increase student safety for that matter), use the students themselves as the gate campers and have practice running through gates against the class. Put up a bubble on the gate, have the same amount of people you had teaching the class with probing, and use the students as interceptors...... Then have the student who is running the gate camp see if he can break lock with an ecm burst or get away some with some other method already discussed in the current course.... Just having one skirmisher from agony would probably be good enough (and he could go back to the supported course when we set out for the roam) and use the students as bodies around the gate to simulate how it would be when you have to pick a direction and go with it etc. etc. I agree with Niven on the directional scanner. It was missing from this course. The last covops seminar had a good discussion on it with Baka. I had no idea how powerful that thing was until someone showed me how to use it. I rarely close it now. I would also give a good short discussion on how exactly to enter a new system..... This process is kind of assumed I guess, but it is terribly important for a loner pilot. It may seem trivial, but it takes a while to get it down and it wouldn't take but 5 minutes to discuss as you could add it to the prerequisite reading. You could probably come up with a pneumonic or short process for the students to practice like: Breathe, Look, Scan, Cloak, Report. 1. Take a deep breath and zoom out. 2. Look at what is on grid to evaluate your immediate threats, if any. 3. Do a 360 scan. These steps can all be done way before the gate cloak expires. 4. Get yourself cloaked. 5. Report to the FC if you have something relevent. At least this way if you get popped in a camp, you have your scan done and can report back with the fleet compliment, etc. etc.... Of course I'm probably forgetting like 10 steps, but you get the idea. I have found it easier to learn new concepts when I have something like this to latch on to in the beginning of the training. Just a thought anyway. Ending the covops class 30 minutes prior to the supported class is a superb idea. That would have solved all of the problems we experienced this time AND allowed the cat herd to get somewhat going toward their initial positions......... Ok. I'll make it stop! Thanks again Agony.

[Deckerd]

Excellent class. As much as I agree or disagree with a lot of the comments made here, I do have to interject that everyone who takes this class has a far different experience with the covops role than everyone else who takes the same class. My interpretation of what Agony is doing is playing to the lowest common denominator of student experience. Remember the first time you pvp'd in a frigate, then a cruiser, then a battleship, etc. etc. Each one kind of built on itself and the follow on was easier to learn because of the base experience. Then remember the first time you used a covops and took the role of combat instigator instead of combat initiator. They are vastly different. Being alone and on point for the first time brings back that adrenalized uncomfortable feeling you got the first time you were with a group and shooting at people that wanted desparately to be on your kill mail. And you probably already understand the basics of combat better when starting covops, but the theory itself is different, which makes the covops seminar more like the pvp-basic course from that perspective than the wolfpacks or advanced courses. From what I've learned (and thoroughly enjoyed), covops is about patience more than anything followed a close second by keeping your wits (and situatonal awareness) about you. If I get lucky enough to stumble on an enemy fleet in my covops during the roam and that fleet then gets wiped out by my fleet then Yay! If I don't, then I, at least, get to enjoy the view of all the pretty systems and make some more bookmarks. Either way, I'm not on the kill mails.....

It seems that when Agony is teaching basic for instance, they are teaching the class as though you have never pvp'd before. And they are right for probably a third of the fleet or more. It was true in my case when I first took the class. I think the people here who are providing feedback are coming from their own perspective, which is ok, but kind of short sighted in the scope of the class since Agony has to teach everyone, not just you. This is only the second covops class they have taught (I think) since all of the covops changes. It does have a little ways to go and we are discussing that here, but at least try to take a step out of yourself and talk about the whole process and how it would apply to MOST people, not just what you would like to see for yourself and your experience level. For instance, I had some probing experience, but still learned a bit from the probing practical, which filled in a hole or two in my knowledge..... What may seem like an irrelevent and small training item to you, may be the missing link for someone else. I say keep the stuff that is being covered in there now for sure as it will make everyone more complete from BOTTOM to top. If you can work some of the suggestions that have been made here into the course in a class length timely manner then awesome! But definitely keep it kind of basic. I mean I can learn guitar just by picking it up and practicing strumming, but getting the basic music theory WILL make me a better guitar player in the long run. How should you hold the pick, what are the notes, etc. etc.

As far as class size goes, what can you do? Twenty IS a small class relative to the number wanting to take the course, but there are cat herding issues with even that few new students. I'm sure it would be awesome to have a class of 5-10 with my own personal Agony guru leading me around, but how long would I have to wait to get into that class if I hadn't taken it yet? My suggestion is to assume alumni can get around themselves. I enjoyed that immensly. Alumni are not instructors, but they could probably help a great deal with students..... Someone mentioned it here already, but I would say double or triple the PRICE of the covops class. This way you will get the people who are serious about it and not just trying to take every class for the benefit of their Agony forum signature. I would have paid way more for covops.....

There are some good suggestions previously stated. I like the idea of running through the fake gate camps..... Of course, the logistics, manpower, and possibly the time requirements of that are greater for Agony. Maybe to reduce Agony manpower (and increase student safety for that matter), use the students themselves as the gate campers and have practice running through gates against the class. Put up a bubble on the gate, have the same amount of people you had teaching the class with probing, and use the students as interceptors...... Then have the student who is running the gate camp see if he can break lock with an ecm burst or get away some with some other method already discussed in the current course.... Just having one skirmisher from agony would probably be good enough (and he could go back to the supported course when we set out for the roam) and use the students as bodies around the gate to simulate how it would be when you have to pick a direction and go with it etc. etc.

I agree with Niven on the directional scanner. It was missing from this course. The last covops seminar had a good discussion on it with Baka. I had no idea how powerful that thing was until someone showed me how to use it. I rarely close it now.

I would also give a good short discussion on how exactly to enter a new system..... This process is kind of assumed I guess, but it is terribly important for a loner pilot. It may seem trivial, but it takes a while to get it down and it wouldn't take but 5 minutes to discuss as you could add it to the prerequisite reading. You could probably come up with a pneumonic or short process for the students to practice like: Breathe, Look, Scan, Cloak, Report. 1. Take a deep breath and zoom out. 2. Look at what is on grid to evaluate your immediate threats, if any. 3. Do a 360 scan. These steps can all be done way before the gate cloak expires. 4. Get yourself cloaked. 5. Report to the FC if you have something relevent. At least this way if you get popped in a camp, you have your scan done and can report back with the fleet compliment, etc. etc.... Of course I'm probably forgetting like 10 steps, but you get the idea. I have found it easier to learn new concepts when I have something like this to latch on to in the beginning of the training. Just a thought anyway.

Ending the covops class 30 minutes prior to the supported class is a superb idea. That would have solved all of the problems we experienced this time AND allowed the cat herd to get somewhat going toward their initial positions.........

Ok. I'll make it stop! Thanks again Agony.

good comments and guidance

[Baka Lakadaka]

Thanks for all the feedback guys - trust me when I say Agony is taking it onboard and using it to improve the classes. We know there's room for improvement and the ongoing discussions in our internal forums will ensure we continue to gain ground.


This was Jaepee's first class as a CovOps instructor and I'm very pleased to announce that he's been awarded the Covert Operations Instructor Certification

If you take a close look at his ribbons, you'll see a black ribbon with a gold Agony symbol. This only the third instructor ribbon awarded for CovOps. So congratulations to Jaepee on a great effort to learn the materials and take a class on his own.

[muffcobb]

Awesome congrats Jaepee!

[Pesets]

[quote=Muffcobb]
I think the people here who are providing feedback are coming from their own perspective, which is ok, but kind of short sighted in the scope of the class since Agony has to teach everyone, not just you.
[/quote]

Not to start an argument for its own sake, but Covops class is kinda advanced, and is the only Covops class currently offered. There is no "Covops Advanced". So it's kinda logical to expect it to be somewhat comprehensive. I wouldn't mind the probing practice by itself, but it took like an hour out of the theory portion. Covops is a much more complex topic than Basic or Wolfpacks, yet you've got the same amount of time for its theory portion (especially if you're trying to graft two classes together). It was a seminar (which is supposed to mean a lot of information exchange, like asking questions), but it had to be cut short because we had to squeeze in the probing practice (i.e. waiting while everyone scans down Jaepee's ship).

[quote=Muffcobb]
As far as class size goes, what can you do? Twenty IS a small class relative to the number wanting to take the course, but there are cat herding issues with even that few new students.
[/quote]

It wasn't cat herding as such. A typical class (like Basic or Wolfpacks) is inherently scalable, everyone is just flying in one big fleet and following FC's orders (when they can't do even that, that's cat herding). You could have 100 or even 200 people in the class (be it not for Vent limit and the fact that it'd just be a totally ungodly blob) - for each individual student, nothing would change. For Covops, that doesn't work because getting 50 covops frigs fly together in one big fleet doesn't make sense. With that kind of numbers, you need special mechanisms in place to coordinate such a lot of people and process intel from them - mechanisms which are artifacts of the class because you'll never have 20+ covops with your fleet in real situation. 50 people acting as one entity (main fleet) don't seem like much, but 20 people acting as separate entities is a lot.

[quote=Muffcobb]
Someone mentioned it here already, but I would say double or triple the PRICE of the covops class. This way you will get the people who are serious about it and not just trying to take every class for the benefit of their Agony forum signature. I would have paid way more for covops.....
[/quote]

Couple paragraphs earlier you urged to consider the people other than yourself. Taking Covops already costs considerable amount of isk for an "average" pvper (especially if you include the skills cost/training time, and the ship itself). Heck, I wouldn't pay 90mil for a class. 40, maybe 50...

Again, perhaps it would be good to split the class into "scouting basics" (with T1 probing frigs and cloaks, and basic stuff like probing practice), and one month later "scouting advanced" with the real covops frigs and advanced material. Of course that raises the question that if you can't make it on either of two days, you're screwed (even if you already know the basics anyways).

[quote=Muffcobb]I agree with Niven on the directional scanner. It was missing from this course. The last covops seminar had a good discussion on it with Baka. I had no idea how powerful that thing was until someone showed me how to use it. I rarely close it now.[/quote]

I believe directional scanning was covered in Wolfpacks last time i took it.

[quote name='Muffcobb]You could probably come up with a pneumonic or short process for the students to practice like: Breathe' date=' Look, Scan, Cloak, Report.[/quote']

Not to be picky, but it's "mnemonic". Pneumonic is someone who's got inflammatory lung infection

P.S. Yea, and just for the love of ranting, the class prerequisites might be a bit high. They were a must-have with the old probing system, and make sense if you seriously plan to fly covops in the future, but right now there's nothing in the class itself that really requires most of those skills. All you really need is Covert Ops 4 (in fact i believe you can get away with 3, except then you can't fit defensive ewar without fitting mods), and Astrometrics 3 or 4 (in fact we never did anything that would require it at above 1).

P.P.S. Yea, and congratulations to Jaepee 8)

[Bamar]

Afaik directional scanning of the "find the ratter before he logs" variety is covered in our Skirmishing seminar (which we're working on releasing to the public).