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[10 DEC @ 0330] Destroyer Public Gang - Friday Night US (short notice)


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#26 AkJon Ferguson

AkJon Ferguson

Posted 09 December 2011 - 10:08 PM

You might think so, but you'd be wrong. Last week we had two distinct fights against other destroyer gangs (both outnumbered us and had more firepower than us) and yet beat both handily because we focused fire and were disciplined while they spread around their DPS. Yes targets die quickly, but that's why you have secondaries and tertiaries. Maybe the entire gang doesn't get on each individual target, but at any one point in time all your dps is focused on a single target. At no point in either circumstance should people be idle, but with focused fire you'll be taking down targets faster.

If you get to a point where calling primaries is no longer feasible (this point is larger than 20v20) then the solution is to have everyone sort by name and go down the list, not to spread dps. Spread DPS is basically never a good idea, unless you significantly outnumber an enemy gang and just want to grab as many of them as possible.


Again, was just referring to glass cannons in not-tiny engagements (5vs5 ofc it's better to focus fire because it's much easier to find the primary once called and because there isn't so much 'overkill' (as there would be with 20 destroyers all shooting 1 destroyer.) 10v10 is probably about where the two methods achieve similar results.

It'd be a fun theory to test with identical (not ridiculously overtanked, because then we're not flying glass cannons anymore) fits. If you can pop 10 separate called primaries in the ~ 35 seconds (fair estimate?) it takes a thrasher to kill another thrasher (not to mention that the ewar gets automatically spread perfectly as well with my method,) I'll eat my hat.
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/9285-closed-pvp-basic-20-21-feb-1800/]BASIC-20100220[/link]
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/11350-open-pvp-avanced-hssr-2300-15th-advanced-2100-for-16th-17th-july/]ADVANCED HSSR -1807102100[/link]
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/11588-closed-pvp-wolfpacks-class-august-2829-1800/]WOLFPACKS-201008281800[/link]
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/12728-fullpvp-covops-nov-28-1800-venue-changeread/]COVOPS - 281101800[/link]
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/13477-closed-pvp-skirmish-prototype-class-29th-30th-january-1300/]SKIRMISH-20110129[/link]
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/13315-closed-pvp-flybys-february-12th-1800/]FLYBYS-20110212[/link]
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/16195-closed-stealth-bombers-20111119-2000/]Stealth Bombers 20111119[/link]
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#27 Bamar

Bamar

Posted 09 December 2011 - 10:32 PM

You might think so, but you'd be wrong. Last week we had two distinct fights against other destroyer gangs (both outnumbered us and had more firepower than us) and yet beat both handily because we focused fire and were disciplined while they spread around their DPS. Yes targets die quickly, but that's why you have secondaries and tertiaries. Maybe the entire gang doesn't get on each individual target, but at any one point in time all your dps is focused on a single target. At no point in either circumstance should people be idle, but with focused fire you'll be taking down targets faster.

If you get to a point where calling primaries is no longer feasible (this point is larger than 20v20) then the solution is to have everyone sort by name and go down the list, not to spread dps. Spread DPS is basically never a good idea, unless you significantly outnumber an enemy gang and just want to grab as many of them as possible.


Again, was just referring to glass cannons in not-tiny engagements (5vs5 ofc it's better to focus fire because it's much easier to find the primary once called and because there isn't so much 'overkill' (as there would be with 20 destroyers all shooting 1 destroyer.) 10v10 is probably about where the two methods achieve similar results.

It'd be a fun theory to test with identical (not ridiculously overtanked, because then we're not flying glass cannons anymore) fits. If you can pop 10 separate called primaries in the ~ 35 seconds (fair estimate?) it takes a thrasher to kill another thrasher (not to mention that the ewar gets automatically spread perfectly as well with my method,) I'll eat my hat.


That's the thing though, I have tested it, I've tested it for close to 6 years now. Spreading DPS is never a good thing. You either call primaries or you have everyone sort their overview the same way and go down the list. Spreading DPS is never a better solution to either of these tactics. There isn't overkill or wasted DPS, there's just moving onto the secondary after the primary dies.

The problem is that you're not accounting for the lost DPS when primaries die compared to split DPS. Think about this example...

Lets assume you have a perfectly equal 10v10 fight. Lets say that each individual can kill each other individual in 10 seconds (This isn't a realistic number, but it rounds nicely).

Now, team A calls primaries, team B splits damage.

Now, ignoring the lost DPS from people dying, both fleets could fully wipe out the other after 10 seconds, so yes, they're equal.

When looking at losing DPS though it looks like this.

0s - A has 10, B has 10
1s - A has 10, B has 9
2s - A has 10, B has 8
3s - A has 10, B has 7
etc etc

In the end, after 10 seconds B has 0 pilots and A still has their full 10 (with varying degrees of damage taken).

Looking at averaged kills over time is faulty because it completely ignores the biggest reason you want to focus fire to begin with, the faster each individual ship goes down the less effective the enemy gang is.

You're far better off killing a ship a second than 10 ships every 10 seconds.

The only shortcoming with focused fire is the possibility of people running out of targets and not having a primary to shoot. The thing is, there's an easy solution to that in sorting alphabetically and going down the list. Even hypothetically if the person just decides to shoot randomly you'll end up with spread DPS. Spread DPS is the absolute worst-case degradation of focused fire, defaulting to it just because someone might goof up and end up doing it accidentally(and yes, in this case not following primaries/directions is goofing up) doesn't make any sense.
"Stop exploding you cowards!"

#28 AkJon Ferguson

AkJon Ferguson

Posted 09 December 2011 - 10:55 PM

I think we're talking past each other at this point. In a world of no lag, perfect game mechanics (where the game doesn't permit you to shoot at a target that's already dead or redbox a module past the end of one cycle for a couple of seconds,) perfect reflexes and perfect communication focused fire is better. In the real world, do you think you can kill 10 separate called primaries in 35 seconds? I've never seen it done, but maybe I've been in the wrong fleets. Or do you think that my estimate that it takes a thrasher 35 seconds to kill another thrasher is unduly optimistic? Here's a more realistic version of how it would go in a hypothetical 20v20: 0 seconds fight begins 3 seconds both sides have locked their respective primaries, the first destroyer in group B dies 8 seconds the 2nd destroyer in group B dies 13 seconds the 3rd destroyer in group B dies 18 seconds the 4th destroyer in group B dies 23 seconds the 5th destroyer in group B dies 28 seconds the 6th destroyer in group B dies 30 seconds destroyers 7-20 in group A begin dying 33 seconds the 7th destroyer in group B dies 35 seconds destroyers 8-20 in group A are all dead. Destroyer 1 in group A is at full health, destroyers 2-7 in group A all have varying amounts of damage (2 very light, 7 very heavy.) Destroyers 8-20 in group B are all at full health, and having locked other targets while their weapons and ewar were cycling, proceed to kill the remaining members of group A in order from most damaged to least.
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/9285-closed-pvp-basic-20-21-feb-1800/]BASIC-20100220[/link]
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/11350-open-pvp-avanced-hssr-2300-15th-advanced-2100-for-16th-17th-july/]ADVANCED HSSR -1807102100[/link]
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/11588-closed-pvp-wolfpacks-class-august-2829-1800/]WOLFPACKS-201008281800[/link]
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/12728-fullpvp-covops-nov-28-1800-venue-changeread/]COVOPS - 281101800[/link]
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/13477-closed-pvp-skirmish-prototype-class-29th-30th-january-1300/]SKIRMISH-20110129[/link]
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/13315-closed-pvp-flybys-february-12th-1800/]FLYBYS-20110212[/link]
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/16195-closed-stealth-bombers-20111119-2000/]Stealth Bombers 20111119[/link]
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#29 Bamar

Bamar

Posted 09 December 2011 - 11:01 PM

You're underestimating how quickly primaries will die with focused fire. Like I said, absolute worst case in a focused-fire scenario an individual pilot screws up and shoots some random non-primary. The absolute worst-case degradation of focused fire is spread fire. There's no reason you'd want to take the worst-case scenario and then make it your plan from the beginning.
"Stop exploding you cowards!"

#30 Bamar

Bamar

Posted 10 December 2011 - 12:15 AM

Deleted a bit to keep things off topic. Lets stick to substance here.
"Stop exploding you cowards!"

#31 Eomar

Eomar

Posted 10 December 2011 - 03:10 AM

Would have loved to join you, Bamar, but had a prior engagement that couldn't be shifted. Another time, perhaps.

#32 nalda

nalda
  • Pip

Posted 10 December 2011 - 06:53 AM

Fleet was a blast. Thanks Bamar for running it.

#33 AkJon Ferguson

AkJon Ferguson

Posted 10 December 2011 - 07:45 AM

Thx to the scouts and skirmishers as always. That was a fun roam. SOOOOOOOOOO peaceful, gotta love it. Used up a lot of nanite paste, which is usually a sign of good things. (I decided to hell with it and overheated my guns religiously before every fight, planning to click the toggle after 5 volleys if they were still going.) Even when I got whelped it was okay because I agreed with the tactic (trying to gank a machariel.) It just didn't work this time. Was hoping to get my first t3 bc kill but maybe next time.
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/9285-closed-pvp-basic-20-21-feb-1800/]BASIC-20100220[/link]
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/11350-open-pvp-avanced-hssr-2300-15th-advanced-2100-for-16th-17th-july/]ADVANCED HSSR -1807102100[/link]
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/11588-closed-pvp-wolfpacks-class-august-2829-1800/]WOLFPACKS-201008281800[/link]
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/12728-fullpvp-covops-nov-28-1800-venue-changeread/]COVOPS - 281101800[/link]
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/13477-closed-pvp-skirmish-prototype-class-29th-30th-january-1300/]SKIRMISH-20110129[/link]
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/13315-closed-pvp-flybys-february-12th-1800/]FLYBYS-20110212[/link]
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/16195-closed-stealth-bombers-20111119-2000/]Stealth Bombers 20111119[/link]
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#34 Old Toterra

Old Toterra

Posted 10 December 2011 - 03:44 PM

Thanks for opening the fleet to the outside. It is so rare that a agony roam corresponds to my playtime, I just couldn't miss it. I had a great time and hope to join you guys again if you have more late night roams. I had dinner guests (Shaygoh and his wife;) but I managed to kick them out the door just in time to join up with the fleet. Cheers!
See you in fleet,

Toterra

PVP BASIC - 1906092100

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#35 vRava

vRava

Posted 11 December 2011 - 04:25 AM

Was great fun, at least the little bit I could attend before the Laptop battery died ... -- On a side note, lots of peeps said things to me as I was joining/leaving in the vein of "Ohnoes, don't go through Incursion space, you'll suffer MurderDeathKill" Not so. Even when an incursion camp was on gate, it was no problem to get out with a dessie before they even started locking, let alone finished. I suppose with a tripple-tri, dual-plated Domi, it could have been different. But not in a reasonably fast aligning ship.
BASIC-20091003 | WOLFPACKS-200910242300
My father used to say that not playing to win is like sleeping with your sister. Sure she's a great piece of tail, with a blouse full of goodies, but... it's just illegal. Then you get into that whole inbred thing. Kids with no teeth who do nothing but play the banjo... eat apple sauce through a straw... pork farm animals.