42 replies to this topic

[Othran]

Sort of relevant to the ECM discussion although most people are unaware of them are low-grade Jackal implants (IIRC). Rather than reprise a discussion I recommend you go look at Wensley's blog from a few months back, he was looking at the benefits re ECM drones. www.rifterdrifter.com for those who don't know Wensley. I would link directly but his blog doesn't like the Kindle browser I am currently using (I got the 3G one so browsing is free pretty much everywhere bar the US). Useful implants if you're flying logis/jammers.

[Kalar Freno]

Sort of relevant to the ECM discussion although most people are unaware of them are low-grade Jackal implants (IIRC). Rather than reprise a discussion I recommend you go look at Wensley's blog from a few months back, he was looking at the benefits re ECM drones. www.rifterdrifter.com for those who don't know Wensley. I would link directly but his blog doesn't like the Kindle browser I am currently using (I got the 3G one so browsing is free pretty much everywhere bar the US).

Useful implants if you're flying logis/jammers.

For anyone who hasn't come across these, they boost your signal strength, making you harder to jam. Note that they are race specific however, so jackals will only do you any good if you're flying Minmatar ships. So, jammer pilots, you really want to be looking at the Talon set, rather than the Jackal one

[Sarek Minyatar]

I don't think you want to fly into 0.0 in a flimsy ECM boat, in a fleet without Logi support, with such expensive implants in your head.

[John McGuirk]

Thanks for the tip, Othran. Linkage discussing jam RESISTANCE. Which is in fact relevant. I didn't to into much detail "yet" about boosting your own sensor strength, but it's worth noting that when you step into a jamming boat, you're not the only one out there with ECM. Other jammers can shut you down just as effectively as you shut other stuff down. There are modules that boost your sensor strength, but as far as I can tell, they're situational and the more jammers we have, the less critical any one tends to be. Hence no recommendations to fit them.

[Othran]

I don't think you want to fly into 0.0 in a flimsy ECM boat, in a fleet without Logi support, with such expensive implants in your head.

Ummm they arent expensive Sarek. They are pretty damn cheap TBH.

I guess I differ from a lot of people in that I would rather pimp the clone than the ship. Most times the pod gets out when the ship doesnt....

[AkJon Ferguson]

What we've learned so far: The only T2 ECM mod you should even consider fitting is the caldari jammer (because the meta 4 version is pricey, particularly in relation to the rest of the fit.) Otherwise, go with meta 4 always (including the low-slot mod) because it rates to be cheaper and is often significantly more useful. Don't bring multispectral jammers. Rigs should prolly be 1 each of ecm strength (Medium Particle Dispersion Augmentor I,) ecm range (Medium Particle Dispersion Projector I) and locking range (Medium Ionic Field Projector I.) (That gets you to 100+80 and 117km lock with max skills, which seems pretty damn good to me.) Fit is 2 signal distortion amplifiers in the lows, 5 jammers and MWD in the mids and 3 HML in the highs. Meta MWD are better than T2 MWD. So that just leaves the 4th high-slot. I was planning to fit an autocannon just in case I ended up with drones on me somehow at some point but I see a remote rep as a good idea as well. Maybe even a Medium Nosferatu II! (There's lots of fitting room on this thing.)

[John McGuirk]

What we've learned so far:

The only T2 ECM mod you should even consider fitting is the caldari jammer (because the meta 4 version is pricey, particularly in relation to the rest of the fit.) Otherwise, go with meta 4 always (including the low-slot mod) because it rates to be cheaper and is often significantly more useful.

Don't bring multispectral jammers.

Rigs should prolly be 1 each of ecm strength (Medium Particle Dispersion Augmentor I,) ecm range (Medium Particle Dispersion Projector I) and locking range (Medium Ionic Field Projector I.) (That gets you to 100+80 and 117km lock with max skills, which seems pretty damn good to me.)

Fit is 2 signal distortion amplifiers in the lows, 5 jammers and MWD in the mids and 3 HML in the highs.

Meta MWD are better than T2 MWD.

So that just leaves the 4th high-slot. I was planning to fit an autocannon just in case I ended up with drones on me somehow at some point but I see a remote rep as a good idea as well. Maybe even a Medium Nosferatu II! (There's lots of fitting room on this thing.)

Good summary.

As for the highs...ya.

If we are able to stay at range, then even the HMLs to me are useless. I don't think we can go toe-to-toe with anything that comes out to get us, so they're kind of only for when the fight spreads out towards us I suppose. Basically anything that can kill you is going to force you off the field (sneak preview of the ECM guide I'm furiously typing out: you are aligned while jamming. If anything targets you, warp out and bounce back in.) You are all likely better at multitasking than me, but to be honest, with the micromanagement that jamming requires, I rarely use my weapons. In fact, I'm positive I've activated remote reppers more times than I have weapons. Which leads me to almost consider bringing a high-rack full of armor and hull reppers rather than simply losing missile launchers and missiles...
This probably just highlights how bad I am at the game, but to me, it's the jamming that's critical, the DPS is an afterthought. And with the doctrine we're going to try to practice about being out at 70-90, well, there's not a lot out there to shoot at except each other. If there is, we best be in warp.

[AkJon Ferguson]

Good summary.

As for the highs...ya.

If we are able to stay at range, then even the HMLs to me are useless. I don't think we can go toe-to-toe with anything that comes out to get us, so they're kind of only for when the fight spreads out towards us I suppose. Basically anything that can kill you is going to force you off the field (sneak preview of the ECM guide I'm furiously typing out: you are aligned while jamming. If anything targets you, warp out and bounce back in.) You are all likely better at multitasking than me, but to be honest, with the micromanagement that jamming requires, I rarely use my weapons. In fact, I'm positive I've activated remote reppers more times than I have weapons. Which leads me to almost consider bringing a high-rack full of armor and hull reppers rather than simply losing missile launchers and missiles...
This probably just highlights how bad I am at the game, but to me, it's the jamming that's critical, the DPS is an afterthought. And with the doctrine we're going to try to practice about being out at 70-90, well, there's not a lot out there to shoot at except each other. If there is, we best be in warp.

My heavies hit out to 84.4 on EFT so call it 80. And yeah, 84 DPS (I only have spec IV) sounds crappy, but it's ~ half a thrasher. But yeah, if your missile skills aren't top notch, activating your launchers should be an afterthought (as opposed to a distant 2nd priority as they'll be for me) in a 'serious' engagement.

And I suck at multi-tasking, as do most people (including people who think they're good at multi-tasking.)

If we get enough ecm-squad people I think warping off just because you are yellow-boxed is a very poor idea. (It definitely should remind you to align asap, if you aren't already ofc.) By the time you warp off and warp back, the fight will in all likelihood be decided.

[John McGuirk]

If we get enough ecm-squad people I think warping off just because you are yellow-boxed is a very poor idea. (It definitely should remind you to align asap, if you aren't already ofc.) By the time you warp off and warp back, the fight will in all likelihood be decided.

This is one of the fun decisions when flying ECM. There are a lot of scraps that get decided quickly. On the other hand, there are fights like the Archon kill where I bounced repeatedly, and am convinced I was on the field longer than I would have been if I had not bounced and had to reship. It's a personal risk assessment thing My only real experience getting instapopped has been in a Griffin, so you may be right about having a little more tank in a cruiser. Then again, if we can maintain range I think we're only in targeting range of battleships maybe, and that's the one thing that can probably yellow-box me and force me out of dodge.

Another trick is to drop a BM as you're coming out of warp to land in a fight, or right as you leave grid, giving you a way to bounce out and back in around 45 seconds vs. the usual 75 it takes to get to and from an average-distance celestial.

Furthermore, we will hopefully have a TAM artist assigned to us. If we can get them to make us 2 on-grids (like you were suggesting), we can bounce between those at like under 15 seconds per warp

Raise your hand if you want to fly an interceptor and not intercept? We promise your cover won't be blown by getting on any pesky killmails...

[AkJon Ferguson]

Sounds like we're on to tactics. Here's an idea I had (particularly for the RvB engagement.) Each blackbird could focus on 1 race. Pros: Reduces effort to match up jammers with targets because you can sort ships by type and then lock the appropriate group. Reduces jam redundancy (2 people jamming the same ship) because if I'm in an all-caldari ecm blackbird, the only other person who might be jamming that moa I've locked is another all-caldari ecm blackbird.) If we've got 2 all-caldari ecm blackbirds, one guy can go alphabetical and the other reverse alphabetical. Cons: If a couple of blackbirds get knocked out (or d/c or drop fleet,) the overall ecm distribution becomes imbalanced. The all-caldari version is a little pricey.

[John McGuirk]

Draft extra reading material up.

[John McGuirk]

Prudance Windstar, how would you like to join us out at 100 km in the ECM squad?
If not, I suggest trading some gank for some gank in whatever you're bringing.

[Othran]

If Sovai is signed up then she did a great job of providing TAMs for bait squad last time. She may not wish to do it again though as it keeps you off the killmails.

[Prudance]

Prudance Windstar, how would you like to join us out at 100 km in the ECM squad?
If not, I suggest trading some gank for some gank in whatever you're bringing.

Yeah...

[John McGuirk]

Prudance Windstar, how would you like to join us out at 100 km in the ECM squad?
If not, I suggest trading some gank for some gank in whatever you're bringing.

Yeah...

Yeah as in "great idea, sign me up for ECM," or yeah as in "I'm bringing a trimarked, plated ship with a dcu, resist modules and an oversized shield extender?"

[Prudance]

Yea as in not sure how to respond to your post. I cant fly Caldari ECM and will be in a regular hydra thrasher

[John McGuirk]

Hehe, no problem. I just happened to see that on the thread that AkJon posted and thought you should be aware.

[John McGuirk]

For those that have volunteered or are interested in volunteering for the Association of Old Blackbirds ECM squad, I have a few spare Blackbird hulls and jamming modules and rigs in Stacmon that I will sell or rent at Jita prices. You can PM me for what I have available and prices. The way the purchase works is you can flat out purchase hulls, modules, or rigs from me. The way the rental works is that after the roam, I will buy back (in Stacmon, for the same cost I sold them to you) any modules, rigs and UNRIGGED hulls that you wind up not using if you'd like to purchase extras and they don't get blown up. I will also buy back rigged hulls for the cost of the hull minus the cost of the rigs (you're essentially buying and destroying the rigs). I'm not in it to make or lose money, I'm just trying to remove roadblocks for those that have volunteered or last-minute volunteers. I will have access to the forums but not be in game much before the roam, so PM is the way to reach me.