42 replies to this topic

[John McGuirk]

I enjoyed the thread we had going for the Basic Alumni roam last time, showing what people were bringing (that rapidly became a "how are you fitting your Vengeance" thread), so I figured I'd try to get one going here. Also trying to drum up a little ECM support, as that's what I'll be flying. If I'm the only ECM pilot on a roam, it gets lonely reshipping and chasing the gang down by myself. Come along and join the fun! I'll be in a Kitsune or Blackbird in the Agony ECM channel. If O'Kais is not along, I will try to be in charge of getting all the ECM blown up. I have no TACs, and will depend on the charity of a MWD frigate or may take it upon myself to try to burn or ladder them myself if no one is assigned. For those of you not following the ECM news, we are attempting to institute a more organized, independent, standoff-ranged ECM squad on roams. Caldak has been assigning some TAM artists over the past couple roams to get ECM out of harm's way before fights start, so that we can choose the time and range to engage. It beats loading grid then loading station.

[O'Kais]

If I can make the roam, expect me to be flying Kitsune/Blackbird alongside you. AGONY ECM channel will be up, but I am saddened to say I haven't had much time to go making Flyby TACs in Syndicate - I've been busy putting my Merlin hulls to good use getting them blown up in spectacular fashion.

[Othran]

The problem I see is that alumni are supposed to be in the same ship class as students. Class support can fly whatever but they are usually Agony. Not much point in showing people how much you can do with dessies if all the alumni jump into a different class of ship IMHO.

[Caldak]

Looking forward to having a full squad of ECM some day. Think the guys know I try and keep them alive, but its a skilled role to fly which can be lots of fun. So join them me laddys and make me proud. Side note, you will be tested this roam.

[John McGuirk]

The problem I see is that alumni are supposed to be in the same ship class as students. Class support can fly whatever but they are usually Agony.

Not much point in showing people how much you can do with dessies if all the alumni jump into a different class of ship IMHO.

I respectfully disagree with your first point.
As I read that, I can bring a Griffin or Kitsune to a Wolfpacks roam as an alumnus. Given that a Blackbird warps no slower than a Thrasher, I think I should be able to bring that as well, but that's ultimately up to Caldak.

Signups say we have 30 Thrashers and 20 alumni. If I show up and the FC says get in a Thrasher, I have them available. That said, I'd love to see a 5 (or more) person squad of ECM from the alumni...

So join them me laddys and make me proud.

[Othran]

Oh go with whatever Agony say is OK. I was just saying what I had been told in the past. I should know by now to keep my mouth shut re class....

[AkJon Ferguson]

I'll bring a blackbird on my caldari alt if we're allowed to bring them. (Unless y'all would prefer I give you the chance to shoot at me by joining the RvB gang, which I had planned to join before I noticed the schedule conflict.)

I suspect we'll be facing a lot of these.

[Moa, 425's]
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Large Shield Extender II
Warp Disruptor II
Invulnerability Field II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive

425mm AutoCannon II
425mm AutoCannon II
425mm AutoCannon II
425mm AutoCannon II
425mm AutoCannon II
Salvager I

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Warrior II x3

Each one of these does easily 50% more DPS (~274+drones vs ~185) and has almost 7x the tank (33.3k vs 4.9k) of the recommended thrasher fit so unless the jam crew locks them all down we're going to be massacred. In fact, unless we dramatically outnumber them (which I doubt) they'd probably win a slugfest just with their drones.

[John McGuirk]

Well, well. Looks like a great opportunity to practice some standoff jamming There have to be some people out there with some EWAR SP and a couple levels of Long Distance Jamming (which affects all four racial EWAR optimals, not just Caldari)...now's your chance to be a hero!

I'll bring a blackbird on my caldari alt if we're allowed to bring them. (Unless y'all would prefer I give you the chance to shoot at me by joining the RvB gang, which I had planned to join before I noticed the schedule conflict.)

Still awaiting a definitive answer on whether cruisers are allowed for alumni, but he's not said NO to Blackbirds in two iterations of me asking. If we can't, why not lose some Griffins? And given your position on any killmail I've ever shared with you, I'd much rather you be on our side for this one.

unless the jam crew locks them all down

Challenge accepted.

[Caldak]

I wouldn't want more than 10 in the ECM squad. Seeming you are my extra you can do blackbirds, this Is for Alumni only. The rest is dessy hulls and tacticts will be to suit the strength of the ships. ECM does allow taking on more than normal, 10 blackbirds can jam 20-30, I'm trying to give the guys practice in flying support. The only way to learn is by doing. So normally as Orthan said it would be dessy's only but seen someone has stepped up to the plate, why not let it grow a bit. Note , ECM is alumni only and 10 max.

[AkJon Ferguson]

I wouldn't want more than 10 in the ECM squad.
Seeming you are my extra you can do blackbirds, this
Is for Alumni only.

Happy, happy, joy, joy. I'll revise my sign-up.

[Zorbolt]

Happy to join ECM squad if you need another.

[John McGuirk]

You: Wolfpack alumni with Caldari Cruiser at 4+, Electronic Warfare at 4+, maybe even some points sprinkled amongst Long Range Targeting, Signature Analysis, Long Distance Jamming, and Signal Dispersion. Good cap skills preferred, tank and weaponry skills irrelevant. Enjoys long* walks on the beach**.

Me: Fleet of glass cannons in need of force multiplers.

Let's make something*** special happen together.

* unscouted
** Stacmon -> fleet
*** killmails

The skill requirements were tongue-in-cheek, it shouldn't stop you from showing up.

I also have Griffin/Kitsune/Blackbird hulls as well as Meta 4 jammers, Signal Distortion Amps, and assorted rigs in Stacmon that I'm willing to contract to people for the prices I paid in Jita, if lack of equipment is keeping you from volunteering. PM me for details.

Association of Old Blackbirds
Blackbird - John McGuirk
Blackbird - JC Fergusen
Blackbird - Zorbolt
Blackbird - Baialein
Blackbird - Nam Dnilb
Blackbird - [empty hero slot]
Blackbird - [empty hero slot]
Blackbird - [empty hero slot]
Blackbird - [empty hero slot]
Blackbird - [empty hero slot]

I'll edit as more heros flood in. Let me know if anyone needs help fitting the Blackbirds or with general jamming questions. I'm no expert, but with any luck Alistone will see the thread and answer your questions

That said, I'll try to put a quick and dirty guide together before the roam for the self-proclaimed noobs, and we'll likely need a little pre-brief for coordination.

edited for hero Baialein.
edited for hero Blind Man walking backwards (qwertz_fan).
Getting a little heavy towards the front of the alphabet, could use some S through W pilots

[Baia]

well...i think i will try my luck with a blackbird. what fitting would you recommend?

[John McGuirk]

well...i think i will try my luck with a blackbird.

what fitting would you recommend?

Welcome to the Association

The fit below is what I'm currently thinking. Various meta levels make it an OK bang for buck, weighing in at ~12 M as-fit, I think. Ammo, insurance, extra jammers, nanite repair paste, taxes, titles, and fees not included. Depending on your skills, you may need to consider a Signal Amplifier in the lows or an Ionic Field Projector in a rig slot. The goal I'd go for for this particular scenario (which is kind of a special situation) is to have high jammer optimal range with a targeting range that matches or exceeds it. With Caldak's help (and a TAM artist at our disposal), the goal is going to be to range tank.

[Blackbird, AU WP Support 01]
'Hypnos' Signal Distortion Amplifier I
'Hypnos' Signal Distortion Amplifier I

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
BZ-5 Neutralizing Spatial Destabilizer ECM
BZ-5 Neutralizing Spatial Destabilizer ECM
Enfeebling Phase Inversion ECM I
'Hypnos' Ion Field ECM I
'Umbra' I White Noise ECM

Advanced 'Limos' Heavy Missile Bay I, Caldari Navy Widowmaker Heavy Missile
Advanced 'Limos' Heavy Missile Bay I, Caldari Navy Widowmaker Heavy Missile
Advanced 'Limos' Heavy Missile Bay I, Caldari Navy Widowmaker Heavy Missile
Small I-ax Regenerative Projector

Medium Particle Dispersion Augmentor I
Medium Particle Dispersion Projector I
Medium Particle Dispersion Projector I

My skills (plus 10% gang targeting bonus, which I'm not sure we can count on) give:
Racial Jam Strength 8.7 (9.8 heated)
Jam Range 96 + 70 km (EFT notation of optimal + falloff)
Targeting Range 103 km
Cap stable at 52% with MWD and RARS off
DPS: who cares?
EHP: see DPS.

Notes:
I don't have the skills for the 10MN MWD II, so upgrade that if you do, it's better. Ignore this idiocy.
If you're seriously pinching pennies, you can give up jamming performance by replacing the BZ-5 with CZ-4 Caldari jammers. Don't pinch pennies, it looks like we're going to need all the anti-Caldari jamming we can get.
If you want to maximize your flexibility (and losses), carry another Caldari (blue), Minmatar (red), and Amarr (yellow) jammer in the hold. This means you can refit to jam 3 Caldari or 2 of anything else depending on what the scouts find.
The slot sequences above aren't optimized for overheating, I just tossed this together.

[Kenda deLagrange]

Even with all skills at 5 you only get a targeting range of 93km, while having an optimal of 111+80km. I strongly suggest changing one Medium Particle Dispersion Projector I for the Ionic field projector. Or add a sensor booster with range script and go with 4 jammers onstead of 5. Personally, I have both the Ionic field rig AND a sensor booster fitted on my blackbird to be able to jam from within my falloff (range is the main strength against falcons since they don't get any range bonus). Oh, and don't upgrade the y-t8 for a T2: T2 costs about 10 times the other one and it's only benifit is a 2% lower cap need. And it has much more heat dmg. Since you won't use your mwd for more than a few cycles anyways I would stick to the y-t8.

[qwertz_fan]

+1 Blackbird. Never flew Ecm before though, so there is a lot of potential for hilarity. Edit: no Blackbirds on sale in Amarr!? They are on to us! Planning on using something like this: [Blackbird, New Setup 1] Signal Distortion Amplifier II Signal Distortion Amplifier II ECM - Multispectral Jammer II ECM - Multispectral Jammer II ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive 'Malkuth' Heavy Missile Launcher I, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile 'Malkuth' Heavy Missile Launcher I, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile 'Malkuth' Heavy Missile Launcher I, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Medium 'Notos' Explosive Charge I Medium Particle Dispersion Augmentor I Medium Ionic Field Projector I Medium Ionic Field Projector I Comments?

[John McGuirk]

Even with all skills at 5 you only get a targeting range of 93km, while having an optimal of 111+80km. I strongly suggest changing one Medium Particle Dispersion Projector I for the Ionic field projector. Or add a sensor booster with range script and go with 4 jammers onstead of 5. Personally, I have both the Ionic field rig AND a sensor booster fitted on my blackbird to be able to jam from within my falloff (range is the main strength against falcons since they don't get any range bonus).

Oh, and don't upgrade the y-t8 for a T2: T2 costs about 10 times the other one and it's only benifit is a 2% lower cap need. And it has much more heat dmg. Since you won't use your mwd for more than a few cycles anyways I would stick to the y-t8.

I actually agree, the IFP vs PDP is one of the tradeoffs I play with a lot (normally fly Kitsunes, so gimped targeting range is a given for me).

Honestly, the fourth PDP is truly gimped by stacking, but without knowing what someone has in Caldari Cruiser and Long Distance Jamming, it's possible for someone not focused on those couple skills to wind up with a targeting range that's at Optimal + Falloff or greater just by tossing in the IFP.

Not arguing, it's awesome input, and appreciated. Adding a Sensor Booster has the additional flexibility of being scriptable (or not), so for the times that you're not desperate for targeting range, you can boost your scan res by a little (or a lot, if you're in the phonebooth with everyone else).

I'd encourage you to play around with fits. Alistone is also a treasure trove of ECM fitting information that's backed by experience (unlike my inexperience), and recommended throwing a shield extender in the mids as well. As our goal (which may be unattainable, but so far we've done fairly well over the past couple roams) is to be out of range of most stuff as we do our dirty work, I'm not tanking. This is subject to change as I undock my fifth Blackbird of the roam, however.

Bonus factoid as you play with fits is that the IFP rigs stack together, but stack separately from other targeting-range modules like Sensor Boosters, Remote Sensor Booster, and Signal Amplifiers. That is, for targeting range only (from what I can tell) there are two stacks: one for modules, and one for rigs.

And I have the 10MN MWD II as having a significant speed boost over the Y-T8. Not that I've flown cruisers a lot, but from the item database, it's a different story than, say, the frigate-class MWD comparison. I am literally an idiot. This is struck out so no one follows this terrible advice, but lets my idiocy shine and makes the rest of the thread still make sense.

[Sarek Minyatar]

And I have the 10MN MWD II as having a significant speed boost over the Y-T8. Not that I've flown cruisers a lot, but from the item database, it's a different story than, say, the frigate-class MWD comparison.

you might want to double-check that since all MWDs give exactly the same boost within their class (1mn, 10mn, 100mn). They only differ in fitting requirements, cap penalty, sig penalty, and heat damage. There is hardly ever a reason to fit the expensive T2, personally I always fit the Y-T8.
You are thinking of Afterburners methinks.

[John McGuirk]

+1 Blackbird. Never flew Ecm before though, so there is a lot of potential for hilarity.

Edit: no Blackbirds on sale in Amarr!? They are on to us!

Planning on using something like this:

[Blackbird, New Setup 1]
Signal Distortion Amplifier II
Signal Distortion Amplifier II

ECM - Multispectral Jammer II
ECM - Multispectral Jammer II
ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II
ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II
ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive

'Malkuth' Heavy Missile Launcher I, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
'Malkuth' Heavy Missile Launcher I, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
'Malkuth' Heavy Missile Launcher I, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Medium 'Notos' Explosive Charge I

Medium Particle Dispersion Augmentor I
Medium Ionic Field Projector I
Medium Ionic Field Projector I

Comments?

Initial thoughts are:
No multispecs, all racials (range, cap draw, general effectivness)
"Upgrade" from M5 to M4 jammers for no loss in performance, but a gain in fitting and cap draw (plus one more advantage that's part of the contest I'm running, so no hints yet). Each Caldari will cost you ~ 1.5 M to upgrade and each Minmatar will cost you ~ 0.3 M to upgrade from M5 to M4. Each Amarr and Gallente jammer will save you ~ 0.6 M to upgrade from M5 to M4.
Again, if you're really needing to be thrifty, you can just go M3 for Caldari and Minmatar, but you lose some performance vs. M4 and M5.

You will also save money and lose no performance by going to the M4 SDAs, they're called 'Hypnos' Signal Distortion Amplifiers. No one can explain why they are as good as M5 but cheaper, to my knowledge.

[John McGuirk]

And I have the 10MN MWD II as having a significant speed boost over the Y-T8. Not that I've flown cruisers a lot, but from the item database, it's a different story than, say, the frigate-class MWD comparison.

you might want to double-check that since all MWDs give exactly the same boost within their class (1mn, 10mn, 100mn). They only differ in fitting requirements, cap penalty, sig penalty, and heat damage. There is hardly ever a reason to fit the expensive T2, personally I always fit the Y-T8.
You are thinking of Afterburners methinks.

Thaaaat's what I get for comparing a module on a ship to one that's straight out of the left-hand pane in EFT. Thanks for the correction, I'm retarded. Can you tell I'm new to Cruisers?

[Sarek Minyatar]

The Hypnos is much cheaper, no reason whatsoever not to use it. If the meta4 mods are cheaper, USE THEM (all but one race are cheaper if I recall it correctly) - they use far less cap and overheat much better!

[Sarek Minyatar]

Thaaaat's what I get for comparing a module on a ship to one that's straight out of the left-hand pane in EFT. Thanks for the correction, I'm retarded. Can you tell I'm new to Cruisers?

It's exactly the same with frigate and BS sized MWDs... Officer, deadspace, all give the same boost (in their class). Nothing to do with Cruisers.

[John McGuirk]

Thaaaat's what I get for comparing a module on a ship to one that's straight out of the left-hand pane in EFT. Thanks for the correction, I'm retarded. Can you tell I'm new to Cruisers?

It's exactly the same with frigate and BS sized MWDs... Officer, deadspace, all give the same boost (in their class). Nothing to do with Cruisers.

I guess what I was pointing out is that I knew this for frigates, but as a result of showing info on the MWD II from an all-5 FIT in EFT, then showing info on a Y-T8 from the left-hand fitting pane, I got a 500% vs 625% boost. Thus coming to the "logical" conclusion that Cruisers may play by different rules. Yeah, I don't know either, it's how my head works sometimes.

My point was if I had ever undocked a cruiser with a MWD before, I would have known ahead of time what I was talking about. So keep that in mind, people looking to me for fitting advice: I am only confident in the ECM-stuffs. Luckily, smarter people than me are paying attention.

[qwertz_fan]

Initial thoughts are:
No multispecs, all racials (range, cap draw, general effectivness)
"Upgrade" from M5 to M4 jammers for no loss in performance, but a gain in fitting and cap draw (plus one more advantage that's part of the contest I'm running, so no hints yet). Each Caldari will cost you ~ 1.5 M to upgrade and each Minmatar will cost you ~ 0.3 M to upgrade from M5 to M4. Each Amarr and Gallente jammer will save you ~ 0.6 M to upgrade from M5 to M4.
Again, if you're really needing to be thrifty, you can just go M3 for Caldari and Minmatar, but you lose some performance vs. M4 and M5.

Derp, wasn't really paying attention to cap useage. Good point. I'll go for a mix of M4+M5 to balance cap usage and price tag. Usually my ship's dead before it runs out of cap anyway. I was mostly trying to say I am going for five jammers, got Orca en route to Stacmon with 73 jammers on board.

You will also save money and lose no performance by going to the M4 SDAs, they're called 'Hypnos' Signal Distortion Amplifiers. No one can explain why they are as good as M5 but cheaper, to my knowledge.

Guess nobody has made a fortune on this BPO then.

[Othran]

And I have the 10MN MWD II as having a significant speed boost over the Y-T8. Not that I've flown cruisers a lot, but from the item database, it's a different story than, say, the frigate-class MWD comparison.

you might want to double-check that since all MWDs give exactly the same boost within their class (1mn, 10mn, 100mn). They only differ in fitting requirements, cap penalty, sig penalty, and heat damage. There is hardly ever a reason to fit the expensive T2, personally I always fit the Y-T8.
You are thinking of Afterburners methinks.

Y-T8 is simply a better option than T2. Cap penalty is larger but that is cancelled out by lower activation cost. They used to be stunningly expensive until loot tables changed - I have literally hundreds of them, at 30k each its a steal. I recommend people stock up on them in case loot tables change again.

I pity the poor sod who has the T2 BPO as its utterly worthless....