34 replies to this topic

[Caldak]

The Lovely Republic Firetail. 1 - How would you fit it out to Skirmish with? 2 - What Ammo would you carry? 3 - Whats the smallest guns you could out track in one? Open only to the guys comming on the 8th Roam. 1st Prize - 1 Ship 1st of the losers - Spot in a Wolfpacks or Advanced class, your choice. ( Guaranteed spot) Seen no entrys yet, I making it a spot .. Thanks to Othran And I'll leave it as an Unfitted Firetail .. Thanks Othran

[Othran]

The Lovely Republic Firetail.

1 - How would you fit it out to Skirmish with?
2 - What Ammo would you carry?
3 - Whats the smallest guns you could out track in one?

Open only to the guys comming on the 8th Roam.

1st Prize - 1 Ship
1st of the losers - Free spot in a Wolfpacks or Advanced class, your choice. ( Guaranteed spot)

Since Advanced costs 50mill and Firetails are cheap as chips haven't you got the prizes the wrong way around? There's probably a few people trying to work out how to come second

[Caldak]

Whats a fitted Firetail cost you ?

[Othran]

Whats a fitted Firetail cost you ?

16mill for hull at Jita, probably about another 8 to fit T2. Call it 25mill tops.

TBH I'd have thought the main attraction for people would be getting a GUARANTEED place on a course, never mind the cost, means you don't have to camp forums.

[Caldak]

Seen no entry's so far, changed ..

[Othran]

Seen no entry's so far, changed ..

I think people have missed the post, I did at first - I've linked it in the "What you bringing" post to see if you get some interest. Hard work giving stuff away sometimes eh?

[Marvin]

Seen no entry's so far, changed ..

I think people have missed the post, I did at first - I've linked it in the "What you bringing" post to see if you get some interest. Hard work giving stuff away sometimes eh?

Othran, you need to make a firetail fit specific for this competition. That said, I'm somewhat confused on 2 things.

Firstly is how to submit an entry, PM it to you Caldak or just post the fit here? Secondly 'out-tracking smallest gun' is a bit ambigious... what do you consider as out-tracking a gun criteria, i.e. with an orbit of 2000m a 50% miss rate? Further on the out-tracking it's a bit as well how do you compare autocannons and rails for example...

[Othran]

Seen no entry's so far, changed ..

I think people have missed the post, I did at first - I've linked it in the "What you bringing" post to see if you get some interest. Hard work giving stuff away sometimes eh?

Othran, you need to make a firetail fit specific for this competition. That said, I'm somewhat confused on 2 things.

Firstly is how to submit an entry, PM it to you Caldak or just post the fit here? Secondly 'out-tracking smallest gun' is a bit ambigious... what do you consider as out-tracking a gun criteria, i.e. with an orbit of 2000m a 50% miss rate? Further on the out-tracking it's a bit as well how do you compare autocannons and rails for example...

Nothing to do with me matey - its Caldak's compo. I'd post the fit here if you're entering.

On the gun question then this is the way I read that :

He's asking what's the fastest tracking gun you can speedtank (ie orbit faster than the gun can track) - out of ALL the small guns. I'd assume the tightest orbit you can manage - probably around 1500m with AB-fit, about 5km with mwd. Its a good question actually which will require some thought. I have a gut feeling as to what it is but I haven't looked hard.

So you're looking for the fastest tracking small gun that can't hit you. I'd assume base stats for the gun with the best tracking ammo.

I could be wrong and he's asking about guns fitted to the Firetail but I suspect not. Edit - this is one of the ways you could work it out using EFT if you're struggling - plugin guns and see, just discount the tracking bonus Firetail gets. Another little clue is that the angular velocity of a ship will halve if you double the distance and keep the ships velocity at the same speed - its simple maths really but I think that may be the problem here.

HTH - Caldak is probably off to bed by now, he can correct me if I'm wrong.

[Othran]

Heh 90 reads and no entries?

You guys are pretty shy mmm? Maybe a bit worried about posting fits?

Or maybe you don't like Firetails and are still thinking about doing PvP-Basics rather than this roam.

So lets have another prize and see if that gets you posting.

I will put up 50 million for your choice of ship(s) and fittings. I will not hand you 50 million isk but if you wander off to Jita and evemail me with your shopping list then I'll put up a contract for you ASAP. I'll pay the transaction/broker costs too, just to make your shopping simpler.

This is in addition to Caldak's prizes, so its potentially a 100mill compo now.

Same terms as Caldak's compo - ie only open to people signed up/paid for 8 Oct roam.

Edit - someone has just explained to me that although they're signed up on both roams, they haven't actually DONE PvP-Basic, nor do they have access to material yet. I know what Skirmisher means in Agony terms but they don't.

So the 50mill bonus ships/fittings prize is for people who are doing both the PvP-Basic class and the 8 Oct roam. Assuming the PvP-Uni guys are happy with that of course - I'm sure we can get one of the Agony guys to judge the answers. No reason to worry about sh*tfits and dumb answers now. Alumni can still go for Caldak's prizes - as can "newbie" students. Seems fairer this way.

[John McGuirk]

[Republic Fleet Firetail, Advanced Slot Bid] Co-Processor II Expanded Cargohold I Small Armor Repairer I Passive Targeter I Survey Scanner II Micro Shield Extender I ECM Burst II Sisters Core Probe Launcher, Sisters Core Scanner Probe I Rocket Launcher II, Gremlin Rocket Miner II Small Projectile Ambit Extension I Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I Small Stasis Drone Augmentor I Here's hoping for exactly one other entry. As penance for this, I will try to work up a real fit though I've never flown one

[Othran]

You may want to edit it John. Although its not entirely obvious Caldak has said you can have the slot on course if you win - or you can have the Firetail. /quick edit 4tw?

[Marvin]

Nothing to do with me matey - its Caldak's compo. I'd post the fit here if you're entering.

On the gun question then this is the way I read that :

He's asking what's the fastest tracking gun you can speedtank (ie orbit faster than the gun can track) - out of ALL the small guns. I'd assume the tightest orbit you can manage - probably around 1500m with AB-fit, about 5km with mwd. Its a good question actually which will require some thought. I have a gut feeling as to what it is but I haven't looked hard.

So you're looking for the fastest tracking small gun that can't hit you. I'd assume base stats for the gun with the best tracking ammo.

I could be wrong and he's asking about guns fitted to the Firetail but I suspect not. Edit - this is one of the ways you could work it out using EFT if you're struggling - plugin guns and see, just discount the tracking bonus Firetail gets. Another little clue is that the angular velocity of a ship will halve if you double the distance and keep the ships velocity at the same speed - its simple maths really but I think that may be the problem here.

HTH - Caldak is probably off to bed by now, he can correct me if I'm wrong.

Those questions were aimed at Caldak, I've not had time to really play with EFT and can't answer the question on the guns with regards to the tracking till I've EFTed said fit.

On the sleeping, unless he's having an afternoon nap / working nightshift now he'd probably be in traffic going home now. Incidentally we're in the same country and I'm still at the office (though I leave late).

[Othran]

[
Those questions were aimed at Caldak, I've not had time to really play with EFT and can't answer the question on the guns with regards to the tracking till I've EFTed said fit.

On the sleeping, unless he's having an afternoon nap / working nightshift now he'd probably be in traffic going home now. Incidentally we're in the same country and I'm still at the office (though I leave late).

Ah OK, it looked like you were talking to me.

You must leave VERY late from the office if you live in South Australia

[AkJon Ferguson]

Modified entry (modified before seeing any other srs bsnss entries.)

1

[Republic Fleet Firetail, Skirmish]
Gyrostabilizer II
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I

Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
Medium Azeotropic Ward Salubrity I
1MN Afterburner II

150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
Rocket Launcher II, Defender I
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S

Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Core Defence Field Extender I
Small Projectile Burst Aerator I

Borrowed heavily from this fit

2 Faction EMP, Faction Fusion, Faction Phased Plasma, Barrage, Defender missiles, faction rockets.

3 If you mean base tracking, you can outtrack all of 'em except 1 group (civilians.) Good luck maintaining a perfect ~ .6 angular velocity, though. The highest tracking unbonused/unmodded gun you can outtrack would be a 125mm autocannon. (.362 (150mm auto base tracking) * 1.375 (firetail bonus) = .49775) vs .417 (125mm auto base tracking.)

About the fit: I modified Wensley's fit a bit. I prefer mine because it has higher DPS if you use damage rockets and you have the option to use defenders if you run up against a missile boat. It also gives you a better chance in a duel of really high tracking boats. It's a little more economical, too (albeit marginally lower EHP. You can pimp it up with meta 4 DC meta 4 MSE or make it even cheaper with meta 2 DC and meta 3 rocket launcher.) Use the MWD to get inside and then orbit super-tight with your AB on and your ACs overheated until somebody blows up.

[John McGuirk]

This is the best I could come up with, based off the Merlin I've been thinking of trying out: [Republic Fleet Firetail, Skirmission Impossible copy 1] Gyrostabilizer II Damage Control II Nanofiber Internal Structure II 1MN Afterburner II J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction 200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S 200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S [empty high slot] Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I I don't have the experience to even hazard a guess at #3, but it's something that'll be interesting to think about/see the right answers. I originally tried just looking at ship bonuses, thinking it may have been a somewhat trick question, but then remembered all dessies have killer small turret tracking bonuses. Plus I was taking the wrong approach according to Othran's post, which makes more sense than my interpretation.

[Totshiessemann]

For skirmish use my job is to get the target locked down for the fleet, so I did not focus on damage (but did take what I was given for free.) The MWD with the other fitting components let me run down things at over 6k/s on heat (my skills) that puts most things within reach. I had it set with dual prop, scram and tracking disruptor but without the web but it was too easy in practice for frigs and fast cruisers with webs to get out of range and into warp so I had to drop the disruptor for the web. Even though there is grid to spare, I went with the 150's over the 200's because I could actually out-track my own guns at my max angular orbit. That meant tracking bonused ammo or smaller guns. Small guns with faction close ammo result is a large net gain in effective dps. I sustain right at 1k/s with the AB at 1600m orbit and .525 angular velocity. At that point, only 125mm autocannons or faster can track me with all level V skills. Various ship and ammo bonuses change that but not much. The damage control and 2 extenders give me some tank and avoids the speed stacking penalties. The NOS was worth more to me to counter neuts than the dps of the rocket launcher would be. So: 1) Like this 2) Faction Phased Plasma and Fusion 3) 150mm AC and up [Republic Fleet Firetail, Agony Skirmish Dual Prop] Nanofiber Internal Structure II Overdrive Injector System II Damage Control II Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters 1MN Afterburner II Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S Small Nosferatu II Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Core Defence Field Extender I *** Edit as requested: Stats (All Lvl V): MWD Speed 4,417 m/s Overloaded 6,304 m/s AB Speed: 1,662 m/s Overloaded 2,172 m/s Actual Scram Orbit: 1 k/s @ 1600m .525 angular (my skills) Scram Range: 9km (10.8 OH) Web Range: 10km (13 OH) EHP: 3,876 HP: Shield 969 Armor 625 Hull 504 Shield Resists: EM 12.5% TH 30.0% KI 47.5% EX 56.5% Armor Resists: EM 66.0% TH 44.8% KI 36.6% EX 23.5% Hull Resists: EM 60.0% TH 60.0% KI 60.0% EX 60.0% DPS 104 @ 0.7 + 5.5 Approximate effective DPS at scram orbit: 90 less resists The only weapon in game that can track this fit is the civilian gatling pulse laser, so the smallest weapon that this fit can out-track is any of the other civilian weapons. I would carry republic fleet phased plasma for shield tankers and republic fleet fusion for armor tankers. If I can only have one it would be the phased plasma since it is the best of the 3 short range options against drones. *** And one random side note, the second extender was worth more than the anti-em to me since the HP are so low anyway and more HP ALWAYS helps and one resist might help and the EHP are very close.

[Caldak]

Doing this on a phone so please forgive 1 - just add the stats you can get. Example - Speed, tank - EHP , resists , and the Ewar you got, a point. Or scram and/or web. 2 - There gun you can you can out run or track while holding a point/scram on target. Just the gun as standard, no added ammo or skill stats added. Ie 800 mm arty for example. 3 - It's a Firetail , what ammo type wiould you have with you Thanks Othran for the boost in the prize, I'll make it 1 ship for an Alumni and 1 for a new student that is doing both the course and the extra roam day.

[Othran]

Thanks Othran for the boost in the prize, I'll make it 1 ship for an Alumni and 1 for a new student that is doing both the course and the extra roam day.

No worries - especially since nobody taking PvP-Basic on the 6/7 October has entered so far

Heh, so at the moment any old nonsense posted will get you 50mill worth of ships from Othran if you're a student on PvP-Basic and you're coming on the 8 October roam. Worth entering I think even if you have no clue at all what you're talking about.

When you closing the compo? 8 October?

[Freerunner]

I'll give it a shot. After a little EFT warrioring using All V: [Republic Fleet Firetail, New Setup 2] Nanofiber Internal Structure II Overdrive Injector System II Tracking Enhancer II Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Tracking Speed Disruption Warp Disruptor II Medium Shield Extender II 150mm Light 'Scout' Autocannon I, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S 150mm Light 'Scout' Autocannon I, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S 'Arbalest' Rocket Launcher I, Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket Small Projectile Metastasis Adjuster I Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Small Core Defence Field Extender I EHP: 5096 Resists: Shield--30/20/40/50 Armor--60/35/25/10 Speed: Base--624 w/MWD--4283 EWAR: Tracking Disruption, 1 Point Used Phased Plasma for most common resist holes would also have Nuclear in the hold for range. Thermal missiles for resist holes and defenders for missile boat defense. I reviewed some of the information on tracking etc and looked up the tracking rates of guns. It looks like, maybe, I can get under all guns just on speed tank alone. 4200 m/s at 10km is .42 radians (I think. Maffs is hard.) and the 125mm ac is .41. But even at lower speeds, closer range I can get under mediums. Factor in the TD and it just gets better. Okay. That's my attempt. Pick it apart! You should have more exercises like these for the classes. It really forced me to look over tracking, speed, and that sort of thing.

[Marvin]

Ah OK, it looked like you were talking to me.

You must leave VERY late from the office if you live in South Australia

Hmmm as I have it he's from South Africa. It would be a bit difficult timing for the class from South Australia (not impossible)

[Othran]

Ah OK, it looked like you were talking to me.

You must leave VERY late from the office if you live in South Australia

Hmmm as I have it he's from South Africa. It would be a bit difficult timing for the class from South Australia (not impossible)

Oh he's South African alright (can't miss the Afrikaans accent ) but unless he's moved back there he lives in Oz.

Looks like I'm still off the hook for the 50mill prize, Caldak will have to pimp it on class I reckon.

[Kalar Freno]

Seems a shame for Othran to put up a prize with out anyone even putting in an entry...

I was waiting for the Basics course material to become available (which it now has), just in case I was saying something monumentally stupid. Of course, the problem with that is that other people have posted in the meantime, and I don't want to come off as mindlessly copying them. So how to post a fit which is a little different? Taking some inspiration from a familiar face in these parts I present:

The armour tanked Firetail!

[Republic Fleet Firetail, Competition Entry]
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Overdrive Injector System II

Warp Scrambler II
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Tracking Speed Disruption
1MN Afterburner II
Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters

150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket

Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I

Stats (All Lvl V):
MWD Speed 3258 m/s Overloaded 4663 m/s
AB Speed: 1,251 m/s Overloaded 1623 m/s

Scram Range: 9km (10.8 OH)
Disruptor range: very far

EHP: 6,212
HP: Shield 733 Armor 1998 Hull 630

Shield Resists: EM 12.5% TH 30.0% KI 47.5% EX 56.5%
Armor Resists: EM 66.0% TH 44.8% KI 36.6% EX 23.5%
Hull Resists: EM 60.0% TH 60.0% KI 60.0% EX 60.0%

DPS 125

Why use an armor tank? Well, pure speed tanking is all very well, but you need to actually survive long enough for your gang to get there. Shield tanking (apart from having been done further up the thread ) has the nasty effect of increasing your sig, which is really bad when you're trying to speed tank; a 30% increase in your sig (which is what an MSE2 & 2 shield rigs will give you) has the same effect on damage taken as reducing your ang. vel. by 30% (i.e. more than a 60% increase in damage taken at the rough tracking/velocities we're interested in). Armor tanking also makes better use of the resists provided by the DC2 (giving a significantly higher EHP), and uses low slots, leaving us space for dual prop (which IMHO is extremely useful for a skirmisher) and some useful EWAR in the form of a tracking disruptor, which also helps to keep us alive longer (and can be used on a secondary target if we're reasonably confident in our speed-tanking)

The downside is that it hurts our speed.... a lot. This firetail is a lot slower than its nanoed shield-tanked cousin. It doesn't affect our ang. velocity as much as it would seem though, as going slower means that you can orbit tighter, so we should be able to get between 0.45-0.5 (~720m/s orbiting at 1.5km) with good skills and a stationary or slow moving target (I should log into SiSi and test this).

TL;DR

Armor tanking means you have more EHP *and* take around 20-30% less damage than shield tanking (and an extra mid slot for an EWAR mod!). You lose out on time getting to the target though...

1. See above

2. I'd have Faction PP and Foxfire loaded. I'd keep Barrage (for long range), Fusion (armor tankers) and the other disruptor script in the cargo bay. I'd also have defenders in case I'm tackling a missle boat.

3. Is this a trick question? Nothing special happens when your angular velocity passes a gun's tracking, right? It reduces damage, but no more so than increasing your ang vel up to that point did... (as far as I can make out - I was hoping for a moment of inspiration from the Basic reading material, but it just confirmed what I already thought) In any case, I'm fairly sure the above fit is capable of achieving an angular velocity higher than the tracking of any small autocannons (and all the rest of the larger proj. weapons). With the tracking distruptor running it will out-track anything.

Just to encourage any of my classmates to take part, here are some links I found helpful. If your not sure what a "skirmisher" is (cf. OP), try looking here. As I mentioned above (linked again for your convenience), there is a helpful overview of the Firetail with some fitting ideas. For the tracking discussion, have a look at you reading material (which you should now be able to get access to, and have to read anyway )

PS: I should make one of those cool sig things you all have linked to your courses. For the record, I'm signed up to both the PvP Basics course (as a student) on Thu/Fri, and the roam on Sat.

[Othran]

Good man - thank you. I once tried to give away some stuff in Rens and it was almost as hard as this to get anyone to take it I know what you mean about fits already posted. Perhaps Mr Caldak could come up with another set of questions only for the "newbies" to PvP-Basic and see who wins that. Anyway you are in pole position as you're the only entrant for my prize \o/ FWIW your fit looks very similar to one I had when the ship had speed bonuses BTW - it went a hell of a lot faster back then and thinking about it now depresses me Edit - yeah after you attend the theory (class) part of the course you "graduate". Then you have to link the course in your sig if you want to enroll on further classes. Makes it easier for the admin people to check. Mine got turned to text when Agony changed forum s/w so its worth checking. If you're a regular or ex-Agony as some of us are then no big deal, you get recognised - whether that's a good or a bad thing you say

[Freerunner]

Why use an armor tank? Well, pure speed tanking is all very well, but you need to actually survive long enough for your gang to get there. Shield tanking (apart from having been done further up the thread ) has the nasty effect of increasing your sig, which is really bad when you're trying to speed tank; a 30% increase in your sig (which is what an MSE2 & 2 shield rigs will give you) has the same effect on damage taken as reducing your ang. vel. by 30% (i.e. more than a 60% increase in damage taken at the rough tracking/velocities we're interested in).

Actually, if you look closely at the sig radius numbers in EFT, you'll notice that it starts from a base of 35 to (skills and everything accounted for) ~48 with that fit, which is still pretty damn small. The TD will take care of any disparities that might arise from the slight increase in sig radius. If I were to alter my fit, it would be to drop the TD in favor of the dual prop setup and, possibly, to accept lower ehp overall and drop the MSE as well and adding a scram. It would still have more EHP than a stiletto.

Another effect of the armor fit is your overall mass goes up. This may not be much of an issue once you're in orbit around your target, but getting INTO orbit may be a bigger problem due to inertia issues and sudden changes of direction by a wily target looking to evade you. It also means your overall agility isn't as good and getting into warp or up to speed will be more of an issue; a particular concern when you jump into a camp or are looking to catch up with a target.

At least that's my theorizing!

edit: also, shield buffer tanks eventually regenerate, armor tanks do not.

[Kalar Freno]

Actually, if you look closely at the sig radius numbers in EFT, you'll notice that it starts from a base of 35 to (skills and everything accounted for) ~48 with that fit, which is still pretty damn small. The TD will take care of any disparities that might arise from the slight increase in sig radius. If I were to alter my fit, it would be to drop the TD in favor of the dual prop setup and, possibly, to accept lower ehp overall and drop the MSE as well and adding a scram. It would still have more EHP than a stiletto.

Right, but with sig radius increases, its relative (rather than absolute) differences which are key. 48/35 = 37% increase in your sig radius, which when your speed tanking is huge - it's almost the same as turning your afterburner off. Let me give an example: assume your ang velocity is exactly equal to tracking speed of a small gun shooting you. It's chance to hit is 0.5^((40/35)^2) = 40.4%, for about 31% of it's dps. Increase your sig radius to 48, and it now has a 63% chance to hit you, for 54% of it's dps - that means you're taking 73% more damage! And this is in an example where speed tanking isn't that great. Other posts here are claiming to get ang. velocities higher than 0.5 - at these levels increasing your sig radius by this "small" amount means you take almost 3 times as much damage (271% with 0.5 ang. vel.). This is why sig tanking is so huge...

Yes your TD will reduce incoming damage by alot (equivalent to doubling your speed!), but you're kiting with a MWD on which increases your sig by 500%! Comparisons with intys aren't really fair, because they can run the MWD without these penalties, and subsequently avoid most of the high tracking guns by being way into their falloff. Yes, you could remove the TD and switch to dual prop (assuming you have the pg), but the advantage of armor tanking is that you get both *and* more EHP.

Another effect of the armor fit is your overall mass goes up. This may not be much of an issue once you're in orbit around your target, but getting INTO orbit may be a bigger problem due to inertia issues and sudden changes of direction by a wily target looking to evade you. It also means your overall agility isn't as good and getting into warp or up to speed will be more of an issue; a particular concern when you jump into a camp or are looking to catch up with a target.

At least that's my theorizing!

edit: also, shield buffer tanks eventually regenerate, armor tanks do not.

These are all completely valid points, and are the reason why armor tanking is the crazy long-shot rather than the favorite. In case it wasn't obvious from my post above, I'm not not sure I really believe that armor tanking is the best option, and I suspect if I had to actually fly a Firetail, I might shield tank it (although I've almost convinced myself - and it would be much more fun! ).