79 replies to this topic

[Othran]

47 Vengeances (based on post volume)

LOL!

How about we just all go in dual-rep Vengeance with cap transfer mods instead of nos - might not kill a lot but we'd be bloody annoying to kill

You look like you're going to become a good XO John.

[AkJon Ferguson]

My super sekrit RvB alt informed me we'll be shooting at RvB too so I'll prolly need to bring more then one ship anyway, I'll see.

Another frigate fight? We got stomped by EVEUni in the last one. Hope we do better this time.

If there is a frigate fight occurring then dedicated ECM boats probably won't be that great. Might want a shedload of webs/scrams for that.

Qué? That advice seems highly questionable. A few ECM boats with minmatar jammers sitting 75km (in random directions) off the eye of the storm and wreaking havoc would be AWESOME. (Maybe 1 dedicated counter-jammer with caldari jammers.) The rest fitting tank/gank and a track if you have room. Here's where a vengeance can REALLY shine (reliable DPS, active tank actually useful, furball damage sink (oh, this one has no shields, I'll shoot him,) anchor.)

[Druur]

Hmm, I thought of bringing the Nemesis I've been experimenting with over the last weeks, but in a frigate fight that ship would not be as useful. I might still do it, just for the laughs. Otherwise, I still have a handful of Hydra-Tristans left over, and even a Malediction, but I'm totally out of practice on the latter one.

[Othran]

Qué? That advice seems highly questionable. A few ECM boats with minmatar jammers would be AWESOME. (Maybe 1 dedicated counter-jammer with caldari jammers.) The rest fitting tank/gank and a track if you have room.

Well you guys have done more of these than me, but the first massive frigate brawl ended up finished pretty damn fast. Like I said its been a while.

[AkJon Ferguson]

Well you guys have done more of these than me, but the first massive frigate brawl ended up finished pretty damn fast. Like I said its been a while.

I haven't done many (I generally don't care for arranged fights, tbh, takes a lot of the fun out of it) it's mainly just common sense, though. If we're both in rifters/jaguars/wolves (which there will be lots of, presumably) and you have me scrammed and webbed and I have you tracked, I'm hitting you and you're not hitting me as much. What advantage did you get from scramming/webbing me?

[Othran]

Well to be pedantic in your example I gain much the same as you - probably a bit more if I can slow you by 60% with a normal web. I do take your point though. I'm just not sure dedicated ecm is right for a frigate brawl unless its going in at the same time. 1v1 frigate fights rarely last 30 seconds, so even half a squad hitting the same target is going to reduce that to about 10 secs max. Eg - you use 10% of your frigate fleet for ecm - fine. Now what's the plan for the 90% who are potentially outgunned if ecm aren't there at the same time - even then one missed jam in frigate warfare means one of your buddies died as 20 secs dps is usually enough to crack a T1 and some T2 tanks. If ECM is out at 50km or whatever then they're not putting any dps on. So logically the rest of the fleet should prepare to tank/take the heat for 20 secs or so. Fine as long as thats a plan. Were it cruisers I would be inclined to agree with you. Frigates are the nearest Eve gets to "twitch" gaming. As I said I'm here to learn - again, which I find amusing for reasons quite beyond the scope of this thread. Edit - and I am speculating on the basis of what was said earlier in the thread.

[AkJon Ferguson]

Well to be pedantic in your example I gain much the same as you - probably a bit more if I can slow you by 60% with a normal web.

Much the same as me? Ummm, not hardly. Our respective angular velocities are the same. Your turrets are tracked, mine aren't.

I'm just not sure dedicated ecm is right for a frigate brawl unless its going in at the same time. 1v1 frigate fights rarely last 30 seconds, so even half a squad hitting the same target is going to reduce that to about 10 secs max.

Yikes. Why on earth would it not go in at the same time? It would be at range, as stated, well outside locking range of all of the opposing fleet's DPS ships. (You expect the fight to last 10 secs max? lol)

You seem to be saying 'ECM ships aren't good in a frigate fight because if they are deployed in an absurd way, they aren't effective.' Well, duh.

[Vjorn]

Indy, you are one crazy Bastidge I love that falcon so much it's now my desktop.... Edit: my 4yo is absolutely fascinated by the pic lmao...

[sovai]

I was thinking about bringing this for some fast tackle. [Stiletto, Fast Tackler] Micro Auxiliary Power Core I Damage Control II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Medium Shield Extender II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Warp Disruptor II Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Phalanx Rocket 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion S 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion S Small Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer I Small Auxiliary Thrusters I

[Sarek Minyatar]

I was thinking about bringing this for some fast tackle.

[Stiletto, Fast Tackler]
...

very nice fit. Bring defender missiles as well against those pesky Draeks and volunteer to fly skirmish/with the bait squad.
Edit: this is my fit - except I fit an overdrive instead of the nano - you don't really need more agility and also the nano reduces your structure hitpoints. not a big deal but still.

[Othran]

One of the biggest surprises I've ever run into was a rocket fitted Stiletto - the guy did very well with it solo too, as I found out

[Sarek Minyatar]

a fishing stiletto? nice idea... not the point of the rocket launcher in this fit though. I don't think i've ever dealt any damage to any of the ships i've tackled it's just not your job. Your job is to point them, and not let them go whatever happens, until the fleet arrives. I keep Defenders in mine so I'm ready for Draekes and Tengus, and only very rarely switch to damage rockets when I need to kill drones (doesn't happen very often, usually you can just tank them and ignore them).

[Othran]

a fishing stiletto? nice idea... not the point of the rocket launcher in this fit though. I don't think i've ever dealt any damage to any of the ships i've tackled it's just not your job. Your job is to point them, and not let them go whatever happens, until the fleet arrives. I keep Defenders in mine so I'm ready for Draekes and Tengus, and only very rarely switch to damage rockets when I need to kill drones (doesn't happen very often, usually you can just tank them and ignore them).

It was pretty cool - admittedly more like "wtf?" at the time.

Oh I'm with you on Stilettos - I try not to fit anything capable of shooting at ships on it (drones maybe) - for the simple reason that every time I have fitted the other way I've DIAF very fast indeed. I never intended to go shoot at <whatever> but I had guns and it happened. For me, best not to have anything other than drone killing short range ACs/RLs - your defender idea sounds good too, although if the Drake has Warriors they hurt more IME.

If you have no (real) weapons then you have to fly it properly. That's the tl;dr for me.

[sovai]

very nice fit. Bring defender missiles as well against those pesky Draeks and volunteer to fly skirmish/with the bait squad.
Edit: this is my fit - except I fit an overdrive instead of the nano - you don't really need more agility and also the nano reduces your structure hitpoints. not a big deal but still.

Yep, I took your advice from the other night and have defenders trained and fit now as well.

Not that I'm very experienced with it but I had heard that on fast ships like a 'ceptor the nano would help to maintain a stable orbit a little more easily. That said, I'm sure there are ways to accommodate the slightly lower agility without much trouble too.

As for the weapons, I figured I should put on whatever would be a good counter for drones in the event that I'm outnumbered and webbed so I can kill them off as quickly as possible. I did a test with a buddy in a rapier and even webbed I was able to take out a set of warrior IIs without a problem, but if there were a few sets it might become more critical. Is my thinking along the right lines here?

[Tsuiban]

I'll be bringing a Kitsune as well. If that gets trashed, then likely I'll switch to a Rifter.

Current fit is:

Highs:

• 3 Malkuth Standard Missile racks

Mids:

• Sensor Booster II
• 4 Hypnos Multispectral jammers

Lows:

• 2 Signal Distortion Amplifier IIs

Rigs:

• 2 Small Particle Dispersion Augmentor I

[O'Kais]

Very pleased with the projected ECM turnout for the 111008 Roam. A recommendation, however, is that we focus more on a Hydra Rainbow loadout than the Multispectrals (arguably more effective in smaller numbers, but not so when we're looking at 5-10+ dedicated ECM boats (20-40 jammers, 5-10 of each flavor!)). Looks like we'll be bringing enough racial ECM to permajam just about any potential contenders...

[Othran]

Well I had a play with a couple of Vengeance and rummaged through old hangars (first time back in Akora for 2 years, pre-Dominion fits :S ) and I'm flying this at some point : [Vengeance, Agony Special] Centii C-Type Small Armor Repairer Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Centii C-Type Small Armor Repairer Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 150 Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket Corpii C-Type Small Nosferatu Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I It's probably quite an expensive fit now but I'm pretty sure I paid about 6 mill for each of the faction mods back in 2009, so I'm calling it "cheap" Thanks Viss/Sarek and also Kaeda for reminding me of the reason I bought corpii nos.

[Sarek Minyatar]

Looking good now, much better than your first fit Carefully manage your cap (once the boosters are gone the 2nd repper is not much use anymore). I'd probably fit a trimark as well so you have some buffer that your reppers can work one, but thats just me.

[Othran]

Looking good now, much better than your first fit
Carefully manage your cap (once the boosters are gone the 2nd repper is not much use anymore). I'd probably fit a trimark as well so you have some buffer that your reppers can work one, but thats just me.

Swings and roundabouts really. Trimark gives 150 more armour which is "underwhelming" to me Looks like with nos sucking on target I can permarun one and burst the other for 30 secs or so. At least the cap charges are physically small, they're a major PITA on a Sleipnir (800s).

The thing that bothers me most of all is no DCU2 - fighting in structure with combat inties and minnie AFs is normal to me. Pretty much a new experience having no 60% resists on structure in a combat frigate - I can see me getting that part badly wrong sometime

[John McGuirk]

I'll be bringing a Kitsune as well. If that gets trashed, then likely I'll switch to a Rifter.

Current fit is:

Highs:

• 3 Malkuth Standard Missile racks

Mids:

• Sensor Booster II
• 4 Hypnos Multispectral jammers

Lows:

• 2 Signal Distortion Amplifier IIs

Rigs:

• 2 Small Particle Dispersion Augmentor I

I'm surprised about the multispecs and lack of a prop mod. Also, if you're not planning on overheating you're got 4 mods for ECM strength. If you ARE overheating, you've just stacked yourself to 5 (for ECM strength, OH stacks with modules, sadly). Add the low jam strength for multispecs and the fact that we'll have a bunch of jamming boats and you might as well run racials. Furthermore, the multispecs draw 4x the cap and sport 1/4th the optimal range. It sounds like we're going to have the support structure in place to try to stay at standoff ranges, so if you use multispecs you'll need to warp into the phonebooth to have any effect.


Also some recommendations for ECM:

'Hypnos' SDA are virtually always cheaper than SDAII, with the exact same specs.

The M4 jammers are virtually always MORE expensive than their T2 counterparts, for the exact same specs but take less to repair heat damage.

I'll post my fit later, I'm on the wrong computer...

On a more positive note, I'm putting you down for ECM squad!

[Othran]

I'm not an ECM peep but I thought that multispecs were a complete no-no? Used to be. These days its easy surely - fit ladar jammers first then work from there? Or am I missing something?

[John McGuirk]

Well, I think we're going to get a breakdown of available slots, then distribute racials between them. Kitsunes will have 4 slots available, Griffins 3 slots available. When doing on-the fly coordination, I usually just abbreviate racial jammers as A, C, G, M. Hence I can just say I'm running MMCA, for instance. Depends on what O'Kais and Caldak call for, but my personal distribution would be start somewhere around 40% M 30% C 20% A 10% G Plus or minus 10% on all. As Othran says, Minmatar gets top billing because of the Minmatar representation in PvP. Caldari's next in my book because within any ship class, they'll have the highest sensor strength, and they're the only race that will be jamming US (we can't have that). Amarr and Gallente round it out. I would suspect we'll be spreading everything (that is, not having fits sporting all-Minmatar jammers). My usual loadout is MMCA, with another C and a G in the hold. The C is for when Dzu pipes up and says she's got a gang with Falcon support, and the G is, well, mostly just to increase ISK loss, I guess. I don't know that I've ever switched it out on a roam. Still at the wrong damn computer, so no fit yet It's basically, in order of importance: Nanite paste (I go through a lot of this) ABII 4xM4 Jammers Lows/Rigs: Mixture of modules affecting ECM strength, ECM range, and targeting range, there have been fits where there'll be an agility rig (LFNJ). Small Remote Armor Repper or 2 Rocket launcher (maybe) Defenders (maybe) Basically I don't think I've ever fired a high-slot module in anger over 4 or 5 roams, but I'm often able to rep someone. I still have yet to have anyone definitively demonstrate how defenders work, so I load them mainly out of habit and recommendation from someone on this board. I'd highly recommend seeing if you can make your targeting range dreams come true with low or rig slots before giving up a jammer slot for a SeBo. If we are going to go that route, I still say we coordinate a Remote SeBo chain, for the extra range it gets us

[Othran]

I wouldn't bother with Gallente jams if we're all in frigates. Should be enough tracks around to deal with those (assuming people remember to switch script to range). Amarr. You know I can't think of the last time a jam on an Amarr ship benefited me but I don't do fleets much. I'm not being critical, just musing. Minnie yes, nice and easy given sensor strength. Caldari - absolutely, but being hyper-critical damps would be better than jams to counter Caldari in a frigate fight.

[John McGuirk]

I wouldn't bother with Gallente jams if we're all in frigates. Should be enough tracks around to deal with those (assuming people remember to switch script to range).

Amarr. You know I can't think of the last time a jam on an Amarr ship benefited me but I don't do fleets much. I'm not being critical, just musing.

Minnie yes, nice and easy given sensor strength.

Caldari - absolutely, but being hyper-critical damps would be better than jams to counter Caldari in a frigate fight.

Just musing here too, continuing the discussion, not trying to pick apart your points. You have much much more experience than I do, and I'm just trying to focus on one aspect and do well at it.

Not all Gallente ships derive their threat from their turrets. Logistics, EWAR, Recons, Interceptors spring to mind. Not all are typically fielded but I have seen some over the past year in roams.

Amarr, same argument kind of. Plus they strike me as high-DPS and tanky. Jamming puts them nicely in queue and nullifies DPS while the FC tackles glass cannons, force multipliers, tackle, whatever. I kind of get the impression that beast tanks get slotted low on the priority list for the FC.

Minmatar: PvP flavor of the decade, no argument.

Caldari: can you elaborate? Are you assuming that the enemy will be kind enough to bring frigates? Not sure if you're talking about arranged frig vs. frig battle or general roam. And are you talking about exploiting a racially-weak scan res or targeting range? I also stand by my argument that if anyone deserves to be jamming, it's us. Let them bring Griffins, Kitsunes, Blackbirds, Rooks, and Falcons. We will jam them into oblivion. Drakes deserve a special note: plenty of them, and I feel the same way about them as Amarr. Very tanky, and jamming them allows any havoc they can cause to be negated while the FC works his way down to them.

[Othran]

I wouldn't bother with Gallente jams if we're all in frigates. Should be enough tracks around to deal with those (assuming people remember to switch script to range).

Amarr. You know I can't think of the last time a jam on an Amarr ship benefited me but I don't do fleets much. I'm not being critical, just musing.

Minnie yes, nice and easy given sensor strength.

Caldari - absolutely, but being hyper-critical damps would be better than jams to counter Caldari in a frigate fight.

Just musing here too, continuing the discussion, not trying to pick apart your points. You have much much more experience than I do, and I'm just trying to focus on one aspect and do well at it.

Not all Gallente ships derive their threat from their turrets. Logistics, EWAR, Recons, Interceptors spring to mind. Not all are typically fielded but I have seen some over the past year in roams.

Amarr, same argument kind of. Plus they strike me as high-DPS and tanky. Jamming puts them nicely in queue and nullifies DPS while the FC tackles glass cannons, force multipliers, tackle, whatever. I kind of get the impression that beast tanks get slotted low on the priority list for the FC.

Minmatar: PvP flavor of the decade, no argument.

Caldari: can you elaborate? Are you assuming that the enemy will be kind enough to bring frigates? Not sure if you're talking about arranged frig vs. frig battle or general roam. And are you talking about exploiting a racially-weak scan res or targeting range? I also stand by my argument that if anyone deserves to be jamming, it's us. Let them bring Griffins, Kitsunes, Blackbirds, Rooks, and Falcons. We will jam them into oblivion. Drakes deserve a special note: plenty of them, and I feel the same way about them as Amarr. Very tanky, and jamming them allows any havoc they can cause to be negated while the FC works his way down to them.

Oh go ahead and pick apart everything - its the only way we all learn and relearn ships and fits.

Logistics are unlikely to pose enough of a problem to dozens of frigates that you'd have to plan to counter it.

Amarr are not great at taking out frigates so again why bother? We have TAM people so its not like we're going to slowboat it out there.

Caldari are the highest sensor strength and hence the hardest to jam on a basic hull. It is far better to use something that locks fast and can damp them. It's not chance-based you see and if I slap a sensor damp with range script on a Kitsune then that ship is out of the fight unless it wants to come play closer, where it should get eaten alive by the rest of the fleet.

There is a counter to most things in Eve and for ECM its normally damps and neuts as neither are chance-based.