79 replies to this topic

[Othran]

I saw a few of you discussing ships and stuff up in the enrollment thread which is probably not the best place to put it really. I'm not sure this is much better but its one of the visible forums when you're not logged in so at least it'll get noticed. So what are you bringing/trying out this time? I'm going for a Vengeance as I'm finally training Amarr Frigate 5 on Othran. I'm fairly surprised at the tank it has (14k EHP) and frankly gobsmacked by the fact it can permarun a SAR2, AB2, scram and web. Damage looks a bit meh but at least its consistent. What makes it even nicer is they're 12mill a pop so I can fit it out cheaper than I can buy a Wolf/Jag hull. Insanity, complete insanity When that blows up then Wolf or Taranis are the next options. Or another Vengeance if its fun enough I see some of you are planning EWAR stuff already.

[O'Kais]

As I said in the thread for the 8th, I will be bringing along my Griffin or Kitsune to try out a dedicated ECM "skirmisher squad" (by that I mean independently moving and operating, not necessarily that we will be engaging/baiting targets) that follows in the wake of the main fleet. I'd like to see a greater ECM turnout on this roam than the last few (where we've only had 1 or 2 ships bringing along jammers); so if anyone is planning on bringing one of these ships please speak up so we can start thinking ECM composition and numbers. Thanks,

[John McGuirk]

I'll be in a Kitsune in O'Kais's ECM squad. I'd also love to see more of the EWAR-bonused ships. If you haven't flown a dedicated EWAR ship, you might be surprised at how fun it is to just shut the enemy down. Especially if we can get some coordination going. If you're flying a Crucifier, Griffin, or Maulus (or T2 variants thereof), let us know here and we can try to start coordination ahead of time. You know that sweet fleet manager thing that's used to balance EWAR and takes an hour to get through? There's no reason that dedicated tracks, damps, and ECM can't be coordinated ahead of time. Well, there are probably good reasons but at least we can try. The points, scrams, and webs will still need to be balanced on the fly, as well as the spare midslots that combat ships donate to EWAR. ECM 4 life.

[Othran]

I think you require a certain mindset to enjoy flying ECM-bonused ships and I don't have it, fair play to you if you have For once I'm going to have some tank, I have a feeling it may be required. Perfect timing for me on the roam(s) too - до свидания Беларусь this Friday and not before bloody time either \o/ - so I have loads of time to burn in October.

[Angelio]

If you like to try this idea of ECM squad I will participate with Griffin or Kitsune on my behaf. Sy in space...

[AkJon Ferguson]

I think you require a certain mindset to enjoy flying slow, low-DPS bricks and I don't have it, fair play to you if you have

[Othran]

I think you require a certain mindset to enjoy flying slow, low-DPS bricks and I don't have it, fair play to you if you have

This is also true - although it does manage 1054m/s which is decent for a brick

I just like trying something different at times and this is the ideal situation - Othran normally flies fast in your face minnie ships anyway.

I don't care about killmails, I'm just getting back up to speed on flying with other people which is "interesting" at times. As such the Vengeance looks like a solid platform where I can wonder "wtf is going on?" most of the time

[AkJon Ferguson]

You have a 1% PG implant? I can't get it to fit otherwise. PG 65.4/65.04 [Vengeance, New Setup 1] Small Armor Repairer II 400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I F85 Peripheral Damage System I Ballistic Control System II 1MN Afterburner II J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Javelin Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Javelin Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Javelin Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Javelin Rocket Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Ancillary Current Router I (I assume you have a EANM instead of the BCS but they both use same grid.) Edit: I got it to fit with 200mm plate and trimarks instead of 400mm and acr, maybe that's what you've got.

[Othran]

I compromised a little - only a 12.2k omnitank (EFT) on this one (13.2k with squad bonuses) : [Vengeance, Standard] 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Small Armor Repairer II Damage Control II 1MN Afterburner II X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket Small Anti-Thermic Pump I Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I Minimum resist is EM on 76.1%. Still flies like a brick with an align time of 4.4s assuming max squad bonuses. Cap stable according to EFT - although even if that's wrong its 6 minutes or so running everything. A SAR2 permarunning on a frigate - lovely or what? I'll run that 7 Oct and see what happens. Then decide for 8 Oct. I'm not really bothered about DPS/range/etc Jon - I can do all that solo as normal - I want a bit of "sticking power" this time so I can relearn fleet work. Last roam reminded me of the amount of info on fleet comms and by the middle of the roam I knew roughly where the skirmishers/scouts were and what they were looking at (in most cases) from there on. That helped - having someone punting me around blind is anathema frankly but such are the ways of fleets. Tracking the comms on dotlan helps a lot for those other people who feel likewise. Just a matter of getting back up to speed is all.... hopefully

[Sarek Minyatar]

The Vengeance is usually fitted with Autocannons - similar dps (dps is not your role anyway) and much easier to fit (--> more tank). Also you really need a Nos (or cap-booster). A single neut will otherwise shut down your reppers, your scram, then you. And maybe an MWD - it's a slowboat after all. You might also want to look into the C-Type Reppers - they are cheap and can really be worth it on a tanky ship like this. Caldak's: http://www.agony-unl...il&kll_id=66793 (ACs+Nos, cap booster, dual-repper) Viss's: http://www.agony-unl...il&kll_id=66281 (Rockets+Nos, dual C-Type repper) Mine: http://www.agony-unl...il&kll_id=63108 (ACs+Nos, dual-prop, single repper - MWD-power to your target, scram, switch to AB, signature tank was the idea here)

[t011phr33]

Your fit has a bit more buffer, for solo work or skirmishing this fit is pretty tanky and can hold on to a target for quite ahile. It can easily tank almost every frig and if you kill drones it can tank most cruisers if you orbit close with the AB on. [Vengeance, dual rep] Damage Control II Small Armor Repairer II Small Armor Repairer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1MN Afterburner II Warp Scrambler II Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 150 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S Small Nosferatu II Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I welp edit: Sarek beat me to it

[Othran]

The Vengeance is usually fitted with Autocannons - similar dps (dps is not your role anyway) and much easier to fit (--> more tank).
You might also want to look into the C-Type Reppers - they are cheap and can really be worth it on a tanky ship like this.

Thanks Sarek but first time out in it I'm going to fit for bonuses - hell I haven't fired a rocket in over 2 years; great use of training time that was. Will give them a go on 7 Oct then see - have heard decent things about rockets lately but not in this context

I got a few faction reppers about but I'm going cheap and cheerful to see what the basic ship can do. I still can't get over the fact I can fit it out for 2 mill less than a Wolf hull. I don't tend to find a fit that works for me until I've lost four or five hulls anyway.

[Othran]

Your fit has a bit more buffer, for solo work or skirmishing this fit is pretty tanky and can hold on to a target for quite ahile. It can easily tank almost every frig and if you kill drones it can tank most cruisers if you orbit close with the AB on.

[Vengeance, dual rep]
Damage Control II
Small Armor Repairer II
Small Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

1MN Afterburner II
Warp Scrambler II
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 150

150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S
Small Nosferatu II

Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I

Mmm I wondered about that but in the context of these roams dual SAR isn't likely to help more than SAR + buffer.

Its an intriguing little ship. I thought it'd be Punisher "Max" but it doesn't feel that way. Meh we'll see

[Sarek Minyatar]

The Vengeance is usually fitted with Autocannons - similar dps (dps is not your role anyway) and much easier to fit (--> more tank).
You might also want to look into the C-Type Reppers - they are cheap and can really be worth it on a tanky ship like this.

Thanks Sarek but first time out in it I'm going to fit for bonuses - hell I haven't fired a rocket in over 2 years; great use of training time that was. Will give them a go on 7 Oct then see - have heard decent things about rockets lately but not in this context

I got a few faction reppers about but I'm going cheap and cheerful to see what the basic ship can do. I still can't get over the fact I can fit it out for 2 mill less than a Wolf hull. I don't tend to find a fit that works for me until I've lost four or five hulls anyway.

Your call but it's really not the best way to fit it. Check my post, I added a few fitting examples. You NEED a Nos/Cap booster, don't fit 4 Rocket Launchers at least.

[Othran]

Your call but it's really not the best way to fit it. Check my post, I added a few fitting examples. You NEED a Nos/Cap booster, don't fit 4 Rocket Launchers at least.

Oh gods you linked a dual-prop one. Why did you do that?

I am not flying dual prop, I am not flying....

/me wanders off to EFT to plug it in

[t011phr33]

well the dual repper fit also has the wounded duck effect to it meaning when in a fight if you only use one repper, you can get your target to fully commit and maybe even get his buddies to commit. Then you click on the other repper and kill them all. or die in a glorious fire. either way it's a fun ship.

[Sarek Minyatar]

Your call but it's really not the best way to fit it. Check my post, I added a few fitting examples. You NEED a Nos/Cap booster, don't fit 4 Rocket Launchers at least.

Oh gods you linked a dual-prop one. Why did you do that?

I am not flying dual prop, I am not flying....

/me wanders off to EFT to plug it in

It was an experiment. Worked well at times, and sometimes it died horribly. In a frigate blob fleet I think you really want an MWD, otherwise you'll never be in range of anything.

[AkJon Ferguson]

I think a lot of the fitting advice in here is better suited for solo/small gangs. You won't likely be primaried until the battle is lost and if you're still on grid and primaried after that a couple of small rep cycles won't save you. If I HAD to bring a Vengeance, I would plug in a PG4 and fit it like this: [Vengeance, Basic Roam Vengeance] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Internal Force Field Array I 400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1MN Afterburner II Prototype I Sensor Booster, Scan Resolution Prototype I Sensor Booster, Scan Resolution Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Phalanx Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Phalanx Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Phalanx Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Phalanx Rocket Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Warhead Calefaction Catalyst I This barely squeezes in at 199.55/200 and 60.4/60.9 (that's why I didn't stick something more useful in the mids than 2 sebos, but your odds of landing a useful scram/web are going to be pretty negligible anyway given how slow you are.) 144 DPS is respectable. 11,747 EHP is enough. Alternatively, here's a tankier, less ganky, budget fit. [Vengeance, Basic Roam Budget Vengeance] Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Ballistic Control System II F85 Peripheral Damage System I 400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1MN Afterburner II Prototype I Sensor Booster, Scan Resolution Prototype I Sensor Booster, Scan Resolution Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Phalanx Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Phalanx Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Phalanx Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Phalanx Rocket Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Warhead Calefaction Catalyst I I think a fleet of these would be scary. But one or two in a fleet will just be saved for last. If a tank can't grab aggro, its purpose is nullified.

[Sarek Minyatar]

dual sebos on a frigate /o\ Well that fit is great for killmail whoring, but not for much else. If thats what you want to do, this is your fit. If you want to be useful to the fleet, e.g. be part of the bait group and scram-web that Cynabal while he is pounding you until the fleet arrives for the kill, you need something else. And no this is not too slow - overheated you do at least 2500m/s, more than enough to burn up to a Cane and land scram/web.

[vissuddha]

I have over 200+ kills with this little beauty & my fit is different given the circumstances I expect to face. My purpose for the build I fly in the above link is for the job of secondary tackle in a roaming gang. In this capacity the mwd is best since more than likely the first tackler has a point on the target & I am to shut down the targets mwd. If I intend to go solo than an AB is preferred since you will want to try & control range on your target without the aid of a web. Bit tricky soloing in a vengeance no doubt, but not impossible if you pick your opponents wisely. Now its my understanding that you fine people are discussing its use in a frigate blob? If your intentions are to be secondary tackle than I applaud you & recommend my dual rep fit. If however you are wanting to do anything but that in a fleet I would be looking for a different ship to fly. I say this because it has crap dps, & only has 3 mid slots so not much room for ewar in a hydra fleet. Most ships shine at 1 job(or none at all) take the griffin for example, its an ewar boat, not a tackler, not a dps ship. You wouldn't choose it & then try to get max damage out of it when in fleet right? No, its usefulness to the fleet is ewar, nothing more. Vengeance imo humble opinion is best suited as a secondary tackler & it is quite rewarding to fly in that role given you know your stuff. Sorry for WoT but the Dung Beetle is my precious

[Othran]

Hmmm this appears to have turned into a "which vengeance to fly" thread which wasn't my intent - sorry peeps. Lots of good advice there thanks. Had some time to ponder things overnight at work and I think I need to go out and lose a couple of these to see what's what. I'm definitely not flying it dual-prop (sorry Sarek) as if I do that I'd be better off with a Jag or a ranis - both of which I have up that way already. Dual rep and cap boost looks decent but it doesn't look quick enough for heavy tackle - probably fine in small gang but not with main fleet. Also I struggled initially with info overload last roam (been years since I flew with that many etc) so until I see whether I'm more or less up to speed this time I'm loath to add cap booster management to the mix. Its generally something I only have to do on Sleipnir so its not automatic for me anyway. tl;dr gods only know what I'm going to do - bring a few different ships and see how I feel/whats wanted on the night probably. Vacillation 4tw

[Sarek Minyatar]

I'm not advocating the dual-prop fit. I just showed you some options that were better than the ones posted before, which all lacked some vital ingredients The MWD fits are all fast enough for fleet work - you can easily lock down even a Nano-cane in this. Maybe not a Cynabal if he is running away, but few ships can do that, and they all are far less sturdy than the Vengeance. The AB-only ones are slow - thats why I threw one of my experimental fits in as well. TBH I don't see why you seem to think there is such a huge difference in fittings for larger and smaller roaming gangs. Unless you want to go for the pure km-whore dual-sebo fit. Only for solo-work would I really fit it differently. Fit it like the heavy tackler that it's supposed to be, sign up for the bait squad and have fun!

[Othran]

I'm not advocating the dual-prop fit. I just showed you some options that were better than the ones posted before, which all lacked some vital ingredients
The MWD fits are all fast enough for fleet work - you can easily lock down even a Nano-cane in this. Maybe not a Cynabal if he is running away, but few ships can do that, and they all are far less sturdy than the Vengeance. The AB-only ones are slow - thats why I threw one of my experimental fits in as well. TBH I don't see why you seem to think there is such a huge difference in fittings for larger and smaller roaming gangs. Unless you want to go for the pure km-whore dual-sebo fit. Only for solo-work would I really fit it differently. Fit it like the heavy tackler that it's supposed to be, sign up for the bait squad and have fun!

The only time I have ever fitted sebos was on Agony wolfpacks years ago and I don't think it made any difference there either

I think Viss may be right here about flying something else - I'll try and find time for the alt to annoy some of the GW locals at the weekend and see how it flies solo. Looks like its not quite so mind-numbingly boring as normal down there.

Oh and you may be right about fittings for different sizes of fleet - apart from a brief period in 2009, I don't fly in gangs (Agony roams excepted) so I quite likely have some odd ideas regarding fleets. I certainly tend to look at fleet-fit ships and think "wtf is the reasoning behind this?" quite a lot

Anyway, nuff said about Vengeances - I'm sure everyone not flying one has probably heard enough. Good advice from you all though - much appreciated.

[AkJon Ferguson]

I agree with Sarek that for the bait squad role (in which this ship can shine) his fit (or something close to it) is best. But the OP emphasized survivability and lack of complexity, so I didn't see him in that role, I saw him in the main fleet. I also agree with Vissuddha that "If your intentions are to be secondary tackle then I applaud you & recommend my dual rep fit. If however you are wanting to do anything but that in a fleet I would be looking for a different ship to fly." but I felt I'd already shat on the ship enough. If you're in the main fleet and not bringing ewar or deeps, and you're not the FC (I can definitely see the FC flying this) then what exactly is your role? ("I'm the guy who survives" is not a role.)

[Garulf Hirgon]

Garulf may be bringing some kind of ECM, a griffin or a hyena, if needed. Can help with the subject as desired. Might be bringing a dictor or other hardware if we have a pile of ECM pilots.