124 replies to this topic

[ROX Genghis]

OK I just tested both. Confirmed that Aether is right: drones will decloak you, whether they are abandoned or live. Re: the covops approach. If you approach when he uncloaks, then he cloaks again, your speed drops to zero. We knew this. If you hit "max speed" after you've started approaching him but before he recoaks, your speed will still drop to zero when he recloaks. So setting max speed doesn't work in this instance. You can hit "max speed" after he recloaks, and it will work. In this case, your speed will start dropping when he recloaks, then you hit max speed, then you speed up again. So this is not optimal. It is therefore still best to align the camera behind your ship and manually click in space near the covops to approach. In this case, your speed will never drop.

[[BDEAL] B1ade]

Azual your wall of text maths would make Dez proud/horny

[Goodvibes]

RE: Approaching a covops - one of the problems with the approach / cloak / max speed is that as soon as they cloak, your ship behaves as if it had been told to stop and starts to level to the horizontal. Given that you're sometimes a couple of seconds behind the server, and your keystrokes may arrive a couple of seconds after that, hitting max speed can throw you off enough that you miss the decloak.

My personal method is to hover the mouse over their icon while they're uncloaked and focus on that patch of sky (kind of like focusing on a constellation in the night sky), then double click as they cloak to get myself going in the right direction. The trick with that is that a lot lies with camera orientation, so as Rox suggests, I generally try to get my camera behind the ship.

So, the process would be:
Approach
Align camera
Hover over icon
Double click as they cloak
Cross your fingers

[Bamar]

Personally I've always had a LOT more success from double clicking in space as compared to approach.

[Oneroi]

Thanks all for the answers, but sorry for the late feedback. I've been busy with work and have dedicated the "fun" time I have to ingame shipexploding instead of forum lurking

Azual
I like math, so need to give a heads up about it! Math in games make me warm inside, hehe. I always figure that if you understand the underlying math you can "break" the came by min-maxing and get a edge in competition and PvP.

Now I'm a bit embarrassed, I should have done the math myself, especially as you provide the formula in your wiki, and seen that the chance to hit actually isn't zero at optimal+2xfallof. Thanks for pointing that out!

The knees and kinks, I can't seam to figure it out. The only thing in the formula that changes on either side of them are the range, everything else is constant. Really strange that.

An oh! Thanks for the chat the other day, your people are really nice going even when you encunter them on their own turf.

DaDuthDude
Thanks for confirming that I at least had the basics down! And between your and Azuals comments about my fit and EFT usage I think I learnt some new and good stuff.

The hard part for me when I'm browsing for fits is that they usually don't come with a in flight handbook that explains how that fit is supposed to work. Sometimes it's obvious, but now always.

Othran
That seams strange, not entirely sure why you get that. In my EFT the kinks are there even if you only have on ship and one attacker. And as Azual was guessing, I'm not after modelling a 2v1 fight, only compare two fits against the same target.


Thanks to all of you for helping out! I'll post more questions in a new post for clarity.

[Oneroi]

Next question from the newb!

To plug or not to plug, fixing the resist hole?

Playing around with fits I've started to think about the logic behind resist, and when you should try to plug the obvious hole. Most of my ships are armor tanked, and on some fits (i range from frigs to cruisers) you have some resistance mods in the lows, 1 or 2. Is it then better to have only EANM, or a mix of EANM and Reactive? Or a single Reactive vs single EANM? Please follow my toughed process below, and then give some advice

Against uniform damage, a EANM is always better (counting EHP) then plugging the Explo-hole. But... don't most people know that you have one, and therefore load explosion intensive ammo?

If they do, switching to a reactive plate nets you a relative small loss in EHP against uniform damge, but greatly increases your EHP against pure explosion based damage.

Also, I'm in RvB, their is a lot of Rifters flying around. So either they have Fusion or Phased loaded, at least that's what I'm guessing, with the option of Barrage for T2 users. Also, hybrid turrets are usually loaded with antimatter and used by both Caldari and Gallante. Missiles can choose any pure damagetype, and I don't see many lasers at all in RvB.

Taking this into account I set up EFT with pure Exp damage, and distribution that correlates to Barage, Fusion, Phased and Antiamtter.

Taking a 400mm Punisher fit with one slot of resistance plating, a EANM will give a EHP ranging from 6362 (pure Exp) to 6858 (Phased), that is a nice and even distribution with only 8% spread. If i switch it with a reactive plate the Uniform drops from 6835 to 6444 (5,8%), not a huge drop. But pure Exp damage and Fusion goes to 7956 and 7391. That is a increase by 25% and 16% respectively compered to the same EHP against the same ammo with a EANM.

The downside is that Phased and Antimatter drops by 14% in EHP (around 5800 EHP each). And this pattern seams to follow over to a lot of different fits wih the same theme in the lowslots.

So the question I find myself asking is this. Is it worth to play the "meta game" so to speak? To use the out of game knowledge that most players in PvP know that armor tansk usually have a resistance hole against Exp damage and therefor use Exp heavy ammo? It's a gamble that plays the player so to speak.

In RvB I actually think it might be. Barrage and Fusion are really common, and I also guess that some might not even figure out that you have plugged the hole and run with the same ammo the whole fight. If they do switch, it will cost them at least 10 seconds of reload time.

On the other hand, if you come across other ammo types you have gimped yourself from the start. And if someone switches ammo fast in a fight, I don't think the 10 seconds reload time really matter and they still will have a softer target because your resists and EHP will now be that much lower.

So what do you guys think? First, is my reasoning ok? and what conclusions have you drawn for yourself in this matter?

[Aelana Anais]

Next question from the newb!

To plug or not to plug, fixing the resist hole?

Playing around with fits I've started to think about the logic behind resist, and when you should try to plug the obvious hole. Most of my ships are armor tanked, and on some fits (i range from frigs to cruisers) you have some resistance mods in the lows, 1 or 2. Is it then better to have only EANM, or a mix of EANM and Reactive? Or a single Reactive vs single EANM? Please follow my toughed process below, and then give some advice

Against uniform damage, a EANM is always better (counting EHP) then plugging the Explo-hole. But... don't most people know that you have one, and therefore load explosion intensive ammo?

If they do, switching to a reactive plate nets you a relative small loss in EHP against uniform damge, but greatly increases your EHP against pure explosion based damage.

Also, I'm in RvB, their is a lot of Rifters flying around. So either they have Fusion or Phased loaded, at least that's what I'm guessing, with the option of Barrage for T2 users. Also, hybrid turrets are usually loaded with antimatter and used by both Caldari and Gallante. Missiles can choose any pure damagetype, and I don't see many lasers at all in RvB.

Taking this into account I set up EFT with pure Exp damage, and distribution that correlates to Barage, Fusion, Phased and Antiamtter.

Taking a 400mm Punisher fit with one slot of resistance plating, a EANM will give a EHP ranging from 6362 (pure Exp) to 6858 (Phased), that is a nice and even distribution with only 8% spread. If i switch it with a reactive plate the Uniform drops from 6835 to 6444 (5,8%), not a huge drop. But pure Exp damage and Fusion goes to 7956 and 7391. That is a increase by 25% and 16% respectively compered to the same EHP against the same ammo with a EANM.

The downside is that Phased and Antimatter drops by 14% in EHP (around 5800 EHP each). And this pattern seams to follow over to a lot of different fits wih the same theme in the lowslots.

So the question I find myself asking is this. Is it worth to play the "meta game" so to speak? To use the out of game knowledge that most players in PvP know that armor tansk usually have a resistance hole against Exp damage and therefor use Exp heavy ammo? It's a gamble that plays the player so to speak.

In RvB I actually think it might be. Barrage and Fusion are really common, and I also guess that some might not even figure out that you have plugged the hole and run with the same ammo the whole fight. If they do switch, it will cost them at least 10 seconds of reload time.

On the other hand, if you come across other ammo types you have gimped yourself from the start. And if someone switches ammo fast in a fight, I don't think the 10 seconds reload time really matter and they still will have a softer target because your resists and EHP will now be that much lower.

So what do you guys think? First, is my reasoning ok? and what conclusions have you drawn for yourself in this matter?

For AA it depends on what ship it is (how much room it has to fiddle with tank) and what it is being used for. I would probably given the punisher example you gave go with one EANM and one resistance.

Something else to add to your mental equation is the proliferation and common application of Warrior II drones (which deal explosive).

[Oneroi]

For AA it depends on what ship it is (how much room it has to fiddle with tank) and what it is being used for. I would probably given the punisher example you gave go with one EANM and one resistance.

Something else to add to your mental equation is the proliferation and common application of Warrior II drones (which deal explosive).

Hmm, didn't think of that actully, but in the RvB enviorment that's actully a point for the "pluging the hole" side of the argument, as Warriors are the most common drones. On the otehr hand, drones is usually only a fraction of the ships DPS in most cases, at least seams so for me and the ships I play around with in EFT.

Speaking of Warriors. The reason they are the most popular, is it that they are faster then the others? The "only" option for most people seam to be Gallante or Minmatar drones. Gallante have slightly higher damage, Minmatar have better speed and Explosive damage is good agaisnt most armor tanks. Is that the reasoning behind it?

[Bamar]

Speaking of Warriors. The reason they are the most popular, is it that they are faster then the others? The "only" option for most people seam to be Gallante or Minmatar drones. Gallante have slightly higher damage, Minmatar have better speed and Explosive damage is good agaisnt most armor tanks. Is that the reasoning behind it?

Yes.

[DaDutchDude]

@Oneroi: I could give you an answer to your resist plug question, but that would always a situational one. The best thing you can do is try a fit you think is right, use it and see how it works. Analyze all your kills and losses and try to work out why things turned out the way they did. For example, on a kill mail you can see what ammo a person actually had loaded when he died, and what ammo he was carrying in his cargo hold. You can check your game logs and see how well his shots hit you. You can even fraps fights and review the video. You'll be surprised to see how many Minmatar pilots still only use Republic Fleet EMP because it used to be the highest damage ammo. Similarly there are pilots using Barrage and orbit at 500, making them miss a lot of their shots. You'll have pilots using Hobgoblins instead of Warriors. If you understand why you lost and you keep loosing for the same reason, try to tweak your fitting. My personal general rule of thumb: with T1 ships with a small number of tank slots (< 4) and without logistics: don't worry too much about a resist hole, only fill EM shield hole. With T2 cruisers+ or ships with a good number of slots for tank (4+): try to get your resists somewhat equal. In gangs with logistics: get your resists as equal as you can without going overboard, focus on your repair buffer over EHP (sometimes 3+ hardeners is better then 2 hardeners + dmg control for example). Hope that makes sense. Concerning Warrior IIs: speed is better (whcih makes them better against frigs), damage type is good against (T1) armor tankers, tracking is a lot better then hobgoblins (which is good against frigs). Conclusion: if you fight frigs a lot, bring warriors, 9 out of 10 they are your bets choice.

[Oneroi]

I'll make a real post later, but I'm having the start of a debate over at the RvB forums. Gate cloak, it's 60 seconds right? I tried it myself, the Eve-University wiki says so. My notes from the basic class to. But your wiki entry Fleet Navigation in 0.0 says 30 seconds. Wich is it? 30 seconds session timer and 60 seconds gate cloak right? Am I confused, or did I just find a typo? Speaking of, in the recommended fits for Basic class, the Tristan EFT Cut and Paste, and the Stats section don't line up. Cut and paste say Faction ammo, stats say regular ammo, for the cheap M0 fit that is. I remebered that just right now back from when I preperd for the class. Thanks again!

[Alistone Malikite]

Gate cloak, it's 60 seconds right? YES

But your wiki entry Fleet Navigation in 0.0 says 30 seconds. (yup, a typo)

Wich is it? 30 seconds session timer and 60 seconds gate cloak right? YES

Am I confused, or did I just find a typo?

Speaking of, in the recommended fits for Basic class, the Tristan EFT Cut and Paste, and the Stats section don't line up. Cut and paste say Faction ammo, stats say regular ammo, for the cheap M0 fit that is. I remebered that just right now back from when I preperd for the class.

This typo has been corrected. Thanks for the catch.

[Xi]

Ask anything? Ok... Whenever I try and use evemon to work out how I should remap, I end up with an extra couple hundred days added to my queue. I know this is because of the changes to learning skills... but resultantly, I can't figure out how to remap. Any pointers on how to fix this?

[Serenity Goru]

Ask anything? Ok...

Whenever I try and use evemon to work out how I should remap, I end up with an extra couple hundred days added to my queue. I know this is because of the changes to learning skills... but resultantly, I can't figure out how to remap. Any pointers on how to fix this?

Got the latest version of Evemon? Should fix that bug.

http://forum.battlec...c,132106.0.html

[Corywyn]

Ask anything? Ok...

Whenever I try and use evemon to work out how I should remap, I end up with an extra couple hundred days added to my queue. I know this is because of the changes to learning skills... but resultantly, I can't figure out how to remap. Any pointers on how to fix this?

You need to download the newest version of EveMon, it's not a finished release (it's official but not a final release) which works.
http://evemon.battle...-Candidate.html
Should be the link

[Serenity Goru]

Ask anything? Ok...

Whenever I try and use evemon to work out how I should remap, I end up with an extra couple hundred days added to my queue. I know this is because of the changes to learning skills... but resultantly, I can't figure out how to remap. Any pointers on how to fix this?

You need to download the newest version of EveMon, it's not a finished release (it's official but not a final release) which works.
http://evemon.battle...-Candidate.html
Should be the link

Serenity Goru perfectly snipes Corywyns post

[Oneroi]

Ask anything? Ok...

Whenever I try and use evemon to work out how I should remap, I end up with an extra couple hundred days added to my queue. I know this is because of the changes to learning skills... but resultantly, I can't figure out how to remap. Any pointers on how to fix this?

You need to download the newest version of EveMon, it's not a finished release (it's official but not a final release) which works.
http://evemon.battle...-Candidate.html
Should be the link

Serenity Goru perfectly snipes Corywyns post

Also I ahe noticed that setting up multiple remapps in the same skillplan seams to confuse the current, not finall, version of EVEMon. If that is the case, dubbelclick and to the remapp manually, or split the plan into subplan, get a optimized remapp for each, and then add them naually to the total skillplan.

Also, I'm just a newb, not Agony, so just giving my point of view

[Gavin]

Ok, nano-cane fitting question: What do you find more useful, 220mm or 425mm autocannons?

[DaDutchDude]

Ok, nano-cane fitting question: What do you find more useful, 220mm or 425mm autocannons?

425s for two reasons:
1) They have better fall off
2) They have better DPS

Since the idea of nano-canes is to dictate range (as in: only come close when it's not a danger to you), you want to have as much DPS at as much range as possible, so these two reasons combine for pure win. With decent fitting skills, you should also be able to fit 425s without compromising the rest of the fit. The only possible thing against 425s is tracking, which is worse then 220s. If you fly a nano-cane well, this should rarely be an issue. The only big problem you will have is with a frigate that has managed to scram/web you and got under your guns and can maintain scram/web and damage with both your neuts on it. In that situation however, the difference in tracking between 220s and 425s is most likely big enough that the 220s will save you. Pretty much all of your other tracking problems will be solved by having at least 2 x Tracking Enhancer fitted and using 'keep at range' instead of 'orbit' (or better yet, manual piloting).

[Maudite 9]

New Question...ECM vs Faction ships - regarding Racial Jammers. Will more than one Racial module work well against a faction ship? Or is there still just one like other ships? For example, the Drami is Minmatar Primary and Gallente Secondary. Will my Phase Inverter (Minn) and Ion Field (Gall) both work well against it? I'm guessing no, but want to make sure. Probably just the Phase Inverter. Cheers, Maudite

[Aelana Anais]

New Question...ECM vs Faction ships - regarding Racial Jammers.

Will more than one Racial module work well against a faction ship? Or is there still just one like other ships?

For example, the Drami is Minmatar Primary and Gallente Secondary. Will my Phase Inverter (Minn) and Ion Field (Gall) both work well against it? I'm guessing no, but want to make sure. Probably just the Phase Inverter.


Cheers,
Maudite

Racial Jammers is something of a misnomer. Focused ECM is focused on a particular kind of sensor, not race. It happens that each of the races have particular sensors, but in the case of faction ships, pay attention to the type of sensor in the attributes. A drami for example uses Ladar sensor. SO, Phase Inverter is the correct ECM.

[Maudite 9]

Ah yes, I should have thought of it that way. Thanks. Cheers, Maudite

[Alistone Malikite]

Are faction ships vulnerable to multiple racial jammers?
Maudite

Nope, they only have one sensor type. You can find it if you show info on the ship under attributes.

The common ship that can be tricky is the daredevil. Even though it looks minmatar; it uses gallente sensors; so you should use anti-gallente ion field ECM against it rather than phase inversion that is better against minmatar. That is the only one that I've noticed where the background color of the ship and the color of the jammer to use against it didn't match. There may be others, but I haven't noticed.

In PVP I will always show info to see what special attributes any enemy ship has (if I'm not familiar with it). I pay close attention to sensor strength (and type) when I fly as ECM.

BTW, if you are in a daredevil do NOT try to solo a griffin => you can't web it & escape if you're jammed... I killed 2 last month with my "fishing" griffin.

[Silas]

As mentioned, the color of the ship is not an absolute way of determining the sensor "race" of a ship. What does seem to work, though, is looking at the ship description. The bonus that is listed first is the "primary" race of the ship and the sensors will be of this race. Now, if you're going to click "show info" on the ship you might as well just read the sensor type from the stats directly... Guess the bottom line is you should just memorize them tbh... EDIT: I've had a quick look at the pirate faction ships. To simplify things the background color (racial theme) is a good rule. The only exception, as Alistone mentioned, is the Daredevil. Thing is... the Daredevil is the frigate sized Guardian Angels ship. It should really have the Gallente background color like the Vigilant and Vindicator, but I guess someone at CCP was having a bad day. And apparently taking a new screenshot would be too much work for them...

[JordanParey]

Just wondering what your opinions are of buffer fit PVP frigates and PVP frigates that have some sort of rep. I've been seeing a lot of people put a small rep of some sort on a frigate where possible, even if it has an armor plate fitted or a shield module or something. I remember a long time ago that this used to be something PVP vets would get all disgruntled at. Also, what do you guys think of this Rifter fit? (Rifter, Valkyr) 3x 150mm Light Autocannon II 5W Infectious Power System Malfunction Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 25 J5b Prototype Warp Scrambler I 1MN Afterburner II Small Armor Repairer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Small Projectile Burst Aerator I 2x Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I Also, nice to see you're still in the PVP training business- I looked into it a long time ago and never got into a class..Hopefully I can this time. Feel free to chat with me in the ingame channel "The Ninja Alliance" anytime.