124 replies to this topic

[[BDEAL] B1ade]

For the right price yes

Is Seeing supercaps on every op tempting enough?

Tho last night a "unnamed titan pilot" did the jump bridge fail and scared away the entire enemy fleet :/

[Azual]

B1ade]

For the right price yes

Is Seeing supercaps on every op tempting enough?

Tho last night a "unnamed titan pilot" did the jump bridge fail and scared away the entire enemy fleet :/

Seeing supercaps doesn't really do it for us. Seeing them in compromising positions without decent support on the other hand, is always fun (assuming you have the numbers to kill it once it inevitably logs off).

[AkJon Ferguson]

If you shoot someone in 0.0 and warp to a POS, are you safe to log off or should you stay logged in for 15 minutes until your aggression timer ends? (In other words, will an emergency warp take you outside the POS shields and leave you exposed and defenseless for 15 minutes while the enemy scans you down?)

[Bamar]

if you log out inside a POS's shields you'll stay inside the pos until your timer ends, you don't emergency warp. How safe you are is directly related to how safe your pos is.

[AkJon Ferguson]

Thx Bamar.

[Goodvibes]

As a side note, this is confusing as hell for a cloaky scout sitting next to the POS.

[AkJon Ferguson]

If someone (like a wt) on your contact list is showing online on one account and offline on another account, is he more likely (or sure) to be online or offline or is there no way of knowing (or is there a way of forcing the list to refresh other than logging?) If you are cycling guns and a target painter and lock something, will your target painter (assuming within optimal) bonus apply to the 1st volley 100% of the time, 50% of the time, or 0% of the time (or some other % of the time)? (In other words, does it pay to apply the tp manually an instant before you fire your guns?) In a recent class we were told that missiles fired by someone who is then jammed before they reach their target will still reach their target. (If this isn't true, please pipe up.) Will missiles fired by someone who then slowboats inside a POS shield before they've reached their target still reach their target?

[Aelana Anais]

If someone (like a wt) on your contact list is showing online on one account and offline on another account, is he more likely (or sure) to be online or offline or is there no way of knowing (or is there a way of forcing the list to refresh other than logging?)

I cannot answer the other two but from personal experience, you can have two alts yourself and have the same character show up as online to one and offline to another for a half hour or more. And no AFAIK, there is no way to force a refresh.

[Bamar]

If you are cycling guns and a target painter and lock something, will your target painter (assuming within optimal) bonus apply to the 1st volley 100% of the time, 50% of the time, or 0% of the time (or some other % of the time)? (In other words, does it pay to apply the tp manually an instant before you fire your guns?)

I don't think there's a deterministic answer to this, it all depends on lag conditions.

[Alistone Malikite]

Will missiles fired by someone who then slowboats inside a POS shield before they've reached their target still reach their target?

AFAIK the answer to this one is YES. It is one of the things that makes a drake swarm so dangerous to ships fighting from inside a POS => when a ship on the edge of the POS shield realizes they are in trouble & moves back into the pos shield they will still be taking damage for the next several seconds from all the missiles flying at them that are still in the air.

Drones (specifically sentry drones) have been known to sometimes continue shooting targets that move into POS shields as well. However, if you are aligned and warp it will instantly break the lock of ships, drones, and missiles and the only thing that can still damage you is area of affect weapons like bombs & smartbombs... missiles still in the air will miss and fly off a bit randomly.

AFAIK...

[AkJon Ferguson]

Muchas gracias.

[Oneroi]

Hi all, this is my first "real" post to the Agony forums. I have question about understanding the EFT DPS graphs?

Right now I'm part of the RvB higsec war and was working on new fittings to get a Jita shopping list to haul over to homebase.

I played around with some Trasher fits and found myself asking if a Autocannon or Artillery fit actually would do more damage against the frigates you usually face of against in RvB. Especially considering the range you often find yourself fighting at.

I quickly concluded that the Auto fit was propably a better option. And I initially felt that I understood the graph and why it looked like it did, but then I realised a couple of things that had me confused. This Is what I want help with. I know that EFT warrioring is a "bad" thing in general, but it's still a tool I want to learn to use properly, and then I want to understand what I'm looking at.

So I made two Trasher fits and a Rifter as target (included at end of post) and got this (red auto, green arty):

Looks alright. Right? Both graphs start of flat, the rockets hit, but the tracking is to high and none of the guns do hit. At 1.5km the Autos start to track the target and do damage, and peeks at 6km. The straight drop at 4.5km in both graphs is when the rockets are out of range. The second similar drop at 10km is when the webifier no longer has range on the target, and as such the transversel suddenly jumps up and cuts damage from both graphs. This is what I presume it is at least. Eventually the tracking of the Artys catches up to the diminishing damage from the Atuos that are beyond optimal and in falloff, and at 14 something km they start to do more damage with a peek at 19.5km before their own range limitations start do diminish the damage.

So far so good I hope. If I'm already off here I might need more help then I toughed!

But now I start to notice some things I really can't seem to explain. First off, why the h*ll are they both doing damage outside of optimal+2 X Falloff? I toughed that was max range for all guns? It's not a simple EFT error is it? EFT shows all values with all modification applied, like the range increase from the Thrasher itself? (Auto: 1+5.5, Arty 8+10)

Secondly, the graph have strange "knees", or what ever you might call them in English, breaks in the function that indicates a change in formula or variables:

I can't seam to line this ranges up with anything in the loadouts and realy don't understand where they come from. This is what made me post this in the first place because I really don't like it when I don't understand something. Is it the damage formula in it self that produces this? Because I can't seam to remember always getting them. Or am I missing something obvious?

They are also still present at 0 transversl, just checked to see if I could figure it out that way:


Well that is pretty much it. I also had a more "simple" question. When using EFT and you want to simulate two ships settling into orbit around each other, in what way are you supposed to use the vectors down at the right to get a somewhat usable graph? I just set them to a bit sub max speed and almost 180 degrees to each other. I figured that the orbit command ingame usually is sub max velocity and that in a orbit you travel slightly inward because the target is also orbiting you?

And of course, do comment the fits, and their tactical viability if you like! (also how I'm supposed to use them to get a edge)

Thanks a million!

The loadouts:




And oh! See you guys atteh next BASIC!

[Azual]

The 0% change of hitting past optimal +2x falloff isn't strictly true, but it's roughly correct. (Beware, maths incoming!) The formula for hit chance is: [blockquote]z = 0.5^{[Angular/ModifiedTracking]^2 +[(max(0,Range-Optimal))/Falloff]^2} where Angular = Transversal/Range, and ModifiedTracking = TurretTracking * TargetSig / GunSig[/blockquote] Let's assume both targets are stationary (Angular/ModifiedTracking = 0). so z = 0.5^{[(max(0,Range-Optimal))/Falloff]^2} Taking your artillery example of 8km optimal 10km falloff, at a range of 28km (i.e. optimal + 2x falloff) = 0.5 ^ {[(28-8)/10]^2} = 0.5 ^ 4 = 0.0625 So you actually have a 6% chance of hitting a completely stationary target at optimal + 2x falloff. That said, since usually either yourself or your target is moving, your chance to hit in any meaningful way at this range is effectively nothing. --- As far as the knees on the graph go, I have no idea, I've never noticed them before. I can't think of any reason for them to exist, maybe it's a bug with eft? --- Regarding your fits: - The autocannon setup looks decent, although I can tell you it's going to die very quickly. I reccomend swapping the web for a medium shield extender, or the gyro for a 400mm plate. - The arty setup, as you've noted yourself, is not great close-up against frigates. With this is mind, you'd be better off fitting for range by swapping the scram and web for a warp disruptor and mid-slot of your choice (maybe a sensor booster for fast locking or a tracking computer for extra range?). --- Regarding settings on the EFT graph in general, what you've got there is an absolute worst-case scenario. For a start, disable your MWD if you have it on still (you'll probably be scrammed, and if you aren't you should be turning off your MWD once you're in range anyway) - this will help you hit. To model your opponent orbiting, I'd set their velocity to about 75% of maximum and directly perpendicular. For very short ranges (1 or 2 km) I'd also turn their AB off, since they won't be able to hold that tight an orbit with it on. As for yourself, the best way to model shooting an agile target is to set your own velocity to 0 (or directly towards/away, it's the same). If you set your own orbit to a different range to the one your opponent is holding (and they're faster than you), your ship will just fly towards or away from them while it tries in vain to get to your set range, so your velocity relative to them is very low. This is actually what you want - if you're having trouble hitting targets it's not a good idea to orbit them - this just makes it even harder. You should either approach them, or fly away in a constant direction - this reduces angular velocity and makes them easier to hit.

[DaDutchDude]

understanding the EFT DPS graphs?[/b]

Hi and welcome. I'll see what I can do about your questions.
[blockquote]Right now I'm part of the RvB higsec war and was working on new fittings to get a Jita shopping list to haul over to homebase.

I played around with some Trasher fits and found myself asking if a Autocannon or Artillery fit actually would do more damage against the frigates you usually face of against in RvB. Especially considering the range you often find yourself fighting at.

I quickly concluded that the Auto fit was propably a better option. And I initially felt that I understood the graph and why it looked like it did, but then I realised a couple of things that had me confused. This Is what I want help with. I know that EFT warrioring is a "bad" thing in general, but it's still a tool I want to learn to use properly, and then I want to understand what I'm looking at.

So I made two Trasher fits and a Rifter as target (included at end of post) and got this (red auto, green arty): *snip*

Looks alright. Right? Both graphs start of flat, the rockets hit, but the tracking is to high and none of the guns do hit. At 1.5km the Autos start to track the target and do damage, and peeks at 6km. The straight drop at 4.5km in both graphs is when the rockets are out of range. The second similar drop at 10km is when the webifier no longer has range on the target, and as such the transversel suddenly jumps up and cuts damage from both graphs. This is what I presume it is at least. Eventually the tracking of the Artys catches up to the diminishing damage from the Atuos that are beyond optimal and in falloff, and at 14 something km they start to do more damage with a peek at 19.5km before their own range limitations start do diminish the damage.

So far so good I hope. If I'm already off here I might need more help then I toughed! [/blockquote]
So far, so good ...

[blockquote]But now I start to notice some things I really can't seem to explain. First off, why the h*ll are they both doing damage outside of optimal+2 X Falloff? I toughed that was max range for all guns? It's not a simple EFT error is it? EFT shows all values with all modification applied, like the range increase from the Thrasher itself? (Auto: 1+5.5, Arty 8+10)[/blockquote]
The actual damage algorithm in EVE actually has a chance based factor as well, and this allows you to still hit very deep into fall off, but with a very small chance. EFT tries to give you a base line that averages this out, but it isn't necessarily 100% representative, especially in areas where the chance base factor is a big part of the formula.

[blockquote]Secondly, the graph have strange "knees", or what ever you might call them in English, breaks in the function that indicates a change in formula or variables: *snip*

I can't seam to line this ranges up with anything in the loadouts and realy don't understand where they come from. This is what made me post this in the first place because I really don't like it when I don't understand something. Is it the damage formula in it self that produces this? Because I can't seam to remember always getting them. Or am I missing something obvious?

They are also still present at 0 transversl, just checked to see if I could figure it out that way: *snip*[/blockquote]
Actually I've never seen kinks like that before either, and I can't really explain it. Maybe EFT has changed its calculation in a recent version.
[blockquote]Well that is pretty much it. I also had a more "simple" question. When using EFT and you want to simulate two ships settling into orbit around each other, in what way are you supposed to use the vectors down at the right to get a somewhat usable graph? I just set them to a bit sub max speed and almost 180 degrees to each other. I figured that the orbit command ingame usually is sub max velocity and that in a orbit you travel slightly inward because the target is also orbiting you?[/blockquote]
When trying to simulate an 'orbiting' situation, I usually use max speed (with ewar like scram / web applied) and a 90 degree angle between the flying paths. This not only somewhat compensates for the lower 'real' orbit speed but also represents the fact that 2 ships flying at 180 degrees would actually be the worst case scenario and not one that would happen a lot (if ever) if both ships set a similar orbit.

As an side: sometimes it is much more interesting when you do other things then just orbiting. For example, some ships actually perform better when using 'keep at range'. Playing with EFT can give you some nifty input of how you can solve tracking problems by doing just that.

[blockquote]And of course, do comment the fits, and their tactical viability if you like! (also how I'm supposed to use them to get a edge)

Thanks a million!

The loadouts: *snip*

And oh! See you guys atteh next BASIC![/blockquote]
It's hard to critique a ship fit when you don't know how it will be flown. A lot comes down to personal preference as well. In solo situations, I'd almost always prefer the AC thrasher, but I personally go with either a mwd / shield / scram or AB / scram / web with a 400 plate in the lows.

[Othran]

As far as the knees on the graph go, I have no idea, I've never noticed them before. I can't think of any reason for them to exist, maybe it's a bug with eft?

He has more than two ships on the graph - that will do it, and its not a bug

I've never found EFT useful for any sort of DPS graphing unless its 1v1 - having a third ship apply paint or whatever is fine - but if you have more than one ship applying DPS then the results become pretty useless.

I used to fly a triple trimark 400mm plated AC Thrasher with point and scram. Worked well until people in the area got used to me flying it - everyone expects MSE on Thrashers and frankly its not a fit I like flying for solo stuff. Point on someone jumping in usually gives enough time to AB across and put an overheated scram on them.

[Azual]

He has more than two ships on the graph - that will do it, and its not a bug

I've never found EFT useful for any sort of DPS graphing unless its 1v1 - having a third ship apply paint or whatever is fine - but if you have more than one ship applying DPS then the results become pretty useless.

Huh? I'm not exactly sure what you mean.

I get the same effect (the kink near the beginning of the bell curve and one near the end, although it's usually off the end of the graph) with only 1 target and 1 attacker.

I'm also not sure where you're getting this information about additional ships skewing the graph, since adding and removing additional ships has absolutely no effect on the lines which are already there (I'm trying this as we speak - I can add any number of attackers or targets and the line for the original ship/target doesn't change at all).

If you mean it's useless to model a 2v1 fight, you're right - but I don't think that's what he's trying to do here, he's trying to compare two different fits against the same target.

[Othran]

He has an artillery Thrasher and an AC Thrasher as attackers Azual. When I feed the fits into EFT I get the same "kinks" if I have them both as attackers. Redo the graph with one Thrasher and its fine. YMMV, only trying to be helpful...

[Aether]

so ... why is the sky blue? ... and in some systems it is green or pink?

[Gaia Terminus]

Test

[DaDutchDude]

Test

Test successful.

For your next assignment, fit 10 T1 frigs and fly into deep 0.0. If you get killed, rinse an repeat. Report back to us. GO!

[Madorris]

so ... why is the sky blue? ... and in some systems it is green or pink? %-6

One of the graphics designers is on acid ofc

[cr8r]

so ... why is the sky blue? ... and in some systems it is green or pink? %-6

One of the graphics designers is on acid ofc

the rest put absinthe in their coffee

[DaDutchDude]

so ... why is the sky blue? ... and in some systems it is green or pink? %-6

One of the graphics designers is on acid ofc

the rest put absinthe in their coffee

which is fed to them intravenously 24/7

[/off topic rambling]

[ROX Genghis]

Two questions: I heard that drones no longer decloak, and haven't for a while. C/D? I heard you can no longer double-click on a decloaked covops, then when he cloaks, hit your "max velocity" button to keep heading towards him for a decloak. C/D? <3

[Aether]

so ... why is the sky blue? ... and in some systems it is green or pink? %-6

One of the graphics designers is on acid ofc

the rest put absinthe in their coffee

which is fed to them intravenously 24/7


[/off topic rambling]

haha well that explains this whole game

Two questions:


I heard that drones no longer decloak, and haven't for a while. C/D?


I heard you can no longer double-click on a decloaked covops, then when he cloaks, hit your "max velocity" button to keep heading towards him for a decloak. C/D?

drones still decloak, we tested this a few weeks ago


no idea about the covops