41 replies to this topic

[Rennoc]

So the people who were unaware that a non Agony jerk started a basic PVP class sign up thread, are not going to be able to attend. (Bamar edit - this isn't EVE-O, be polite)

[SilverWyrm]

There will be another Basic class soon. Please be patient and everyone will have the opportunity to participate in the class.

[Phobos]

We are also working to sort everything out. But as a general reminder to everyone please only reply to threads started by official agony memebers. Agony members can be identified by looking for our corp ticker under our name next to the thread. Please be patient. Thanks

[Azual]

So the people who were unaware that a non Agony jerk started a basic PVP class sign up thread, are not going to be able to attend, but the moron who started the thread is enrolled in the proper thread.

Not a reasonable solution to the folks that were here on time and suckered by said moron.

Your frustration is understandable, but I highly doubt it was a 'fake signup thread'. It looks to me like someone just misread the instructions and enrolled as a new thread rather than waiting for the original to open. Other people then also misunderstood the instructions and signed up in the wrong place.

As it happens, the guy who originally made the mistake realised in time and enrolled in the actual thread, and while it's unfortunate that the thread didn't get locked quickly, the fact of the matter is those people (and there were a lot of them!) failed to enroll correctly, so there's no guarantee we can fit everyone in - the size of BASIC classes pushes practical limits as it is.

Please just hang tight, if nothing can be sorted out there will be another class soon™.

[Arkole Blake]

At this point it is unclear what RL issue prevented Bamar from bieng avalible to open registration on time. I opened it to allow those online to get in the class. I am locking this thread and re-unlocking the sign up thread so that alumni can register, if you are not alumni you may put your name in the thread , but please be advised that for the moment the class reg is closed and only those in the first 50 are insured a spot in the class. Once the PVP-U admins sort this, an official post will be made that hopefully will make this issue more clear. Agian, sorry for all the confusion on this class -Ark

[Bamar]

Sorry all, some RL issues kept me from being on at the open time. As far as the accidental posting of a new thread, honestly I don't see why it's such a big deal? It had the wrong title, it was posted by a non-Agony member, the text of the post was obviously a sign-up in the wrong place. Anything more than a very very quick glance would make it clear that it was not a sign-up thread. The enrollment thread is the enrollment thread, and only sign-ups there will count. Sorry to anyone who made the mistake, but in the future be a bit more careful.

[Maddoks]

I apologize for the incorrect post. I missed the class last time and wasn't sure if i was in the right area to sign up. It was truly a mistake indeed. (Bamar edit - this isn't EVE-O, be polite)

[Yurda Dei]

I apologize for the incorrect post. I missed the class last time and wasn't sure if i was in the right area to sign up. It was truly a mistake indeed.

Dude, your actions caused all of the confusion. Your apology is good, but the rest of it needs to go in the trash. Drop it and man up. Everyone needs to let it go.

[Pesets]

As far as the accidental posting of a new thread, honestly I don't see why it's such a big deal?

It had the wrong title, it was posted by a non-Agony member, the text of the post was obviously a sign-up in the wrong place. Anything more than a very very quick glance would make it clear that it was not a sign-up thread.

Except people who are new to this whole thing do not know the pattern yet. Technically it doesn't say anywhere in the instructions that you must sign up specifically in that thread. All it said was that enrollment starts after 1800 EVE time. It is not clear whether you are supposed to wait for pre-enrollment thread to be open, especially if it's still closed after the announced time and there are no moderators in sight who could open it.

[edit]Well, actually Azual has pointed out in another thread that it's mentioned in Sign up FAQ thread... so technically yeah... of course having three different places say three slightly different things doesn't really help clarity, but oh well...[/edit]

On a side note, I must say that signing up for your classes is a pretty EVE-esque PvP experience in itself Perhaps you could offer classes on that... oh wait...

[Bamar]

As far as the accidental posting of a new thread, honestly I don't see why it's such a big deal?

It had the wrong title, it was posted by a non-Agony member, the text of the post was obviously a sign-up in the wrong place. Anything more than a very very quick glance would make it clear that it was not a sign-up thread.

Except people who are new to this whole thing do not know the pattern yet. Technically it doesn't say anywhere in the instructions that you must sign up specifically in that thread. All it said was that enrollment starts after 1800 EVE time. It is not clear whether you are supposed to wait for pre-enrollment thread to be open, especially if it's still closed after the announced time and there are no moderators in sight who could open it.

[edit]Well, actually Azual has pointed out in another thread that it's mentioned in Sign up FAQ thread... so technically yeah... of course having three different places say three slightly different things doesn't really help clarity, but oh well...[/edit]

On a side note, I must say that signing up for your classes is a pretty EVE-esque PvP experience in itself Perhaps you could offer classes on that... oh wait...

As always common sense is the king. Considering every other class sign-up thread is the same, and considering the thread in question was created by a non-Agony member and bears no resemblance to any sign-up thread I don't consider it out of the question to only take correct sign-ups.

If people did get fooled then consider it a lesson for the next class.

[Pesets]

The same thing will likely happen next class, unless you explicitly clarify it in the first post of the pre-enrollment (preferrably in bold red and not fine print). Try to see it from the point of view of a person who is completely new to this whole thing. [S]he reads the pre-enrollment thread very carefully, notes the time, and expects to be able to enroll if [s]he logs in to forum at that time. In fact, some people might have had only a few minutes to log in and then had to leave to go do some other thing. Then, [s]he logs in and finds the pre-enrollment thread still locked. It is not really a good time to go searching for other threads and what not to figure out what's going on, because enrollment thread, whichever shape or form it might take, might open any moment and will fill up pretty quickly. Finally, enrollment thread is open, the person posts everything according to the instructions and leaves (other people have lives too).

Also, posts for creating corp payment accounts seem to be processed even from the FAQ thread, which doesn't really reinforce the concept of significance of posting to a particular thread...

I mean, I'm enrolled either way (unless you choose to drop me for being a smartass devil advocate here), but I would argue that the confusion is at least partially Agony's fault. I would suggest that for this class, as an exception, you enroll the first 50 people from the proper thread, plus the people who posted in the "fake" thread but not the real one (if there are any, most people seem to have posted in both) - I don't think there are many.

P.S. At quick glance, there seem to be about ten people who posted in the "fake" thread but didn't post in the proper one (or posted too late); and a couple who posted twice in either thread (including Maddoks who posted twice in his own thread for some reason).

[Carathas]

Setting aside any issue of 'blame' does the Agony forum allow Enrollment section to be locked in such a way so that only authorised Agony reps can create new topics? This might reduce the chance of something like this happening in the future. And to be fair to Agony, I've never been on one of their classes before but I took the time to look at the previous signup threads to see what they look like (didnt want to screw up) and I (like many others) spotted the fake thread for what it was. A little care and attention along with some common sense would have overcome the temptation to post in the first thread that appeared. Caveat Emptor!

[Baka Lakadaka]

The same thing will likely happen next class, unless you explicitly clarify it in the first post of the pre-enrollment (preferrably in bold red and not fine print). Try to see it from the point of view of a person who is completely new to this whole thing. [S]he reads the pre-enrollment thread very carefully, notes the time, and expects to be able to enroll if [s]he logs in to forum at that time. In fact, some people might have had only a few minutes to log in and then had to leave to go do some other thing. Then, [s]he logs in and finds the pre-enrollment thread still locked. It is not really a good time to go searching for other threads and what not to figure out what's going on, because enrollment thread, whichever shape or form it might take, might open any moment and will fill up pretty quickly. Finally, enrollment thread is open, the person posts everything according to the instructions and leaves (other people have lives too).

Also, posts for creating corp payment accounts seem to be processed even from the FAQ thread, which doesn't really reinforce the concept of significance of posting to a particular thread...

I mean, I'm enrolled either way (unless you choose to drop me for being a smartass devil advocate here), but I would argue that the confusion is at least partially Agony's fault. I would suggest that for this class, as an exception, you enroll the first 50 people from the proper thread, plus the people who posted in the "fake" thread but not the real one (if there are any, most people seem to have posted in both) - I don't think there are many.

P.S. At quick glance, there seem to be about ten people who posted in the "fake" thread but didn't post in the proper one (or posted too late); and a couple who posted twice in either thread (including Maddoks who posted twice in his own thread for some reason).

Feedback is good, so don't assume you're going to get kicked out of the class for politely pointing out deficiencies in the system. One of the things Agony does very well is take constructive advice from our customers.......we may not always do everything that's suggested, but we do listen.

Unfortunately there are physical limits to the class size (e.g. restrictions on vent server licensing, gang size, etc.), so just adding all the extra people isn't immediately possible. However, we will do what we can to help those that have been affected by this confusion, but some people may still miss out this time around.

Rest assured, Agony will do what we can to fix the issue for the longer term, in the meantime it's the best sign-up system we have available. Having moderators on and available is our aim, but RL is more important. If our babies need feeding or grand-dad needs a lift to the airport at short notice then it's just going to mean that internet spaceships take a back seat for a while. Unfortunately this was one of those times when a number of people weren't available (it was 5am here and I was sound asleep).

[Othran]

Personally I was REALLY pushed for time so I posted (but didn't pay) into the "dubious" thread on the basis that I'd have to go out in a matter of minutes. I didn't think it was the "official" thread but I thought "nothing ventured and I might get put on a reserve list etc". Then I got lucky and with wife shouting me that we HAD to go the official thread opened so I reg'd and paid there. I'm sure you guys KNOW why the 18:00 classes fill FAST - its the only real option for anyone on Euro TZ. Hopefully I'm OK anyway - I haven't been in ECP8R in nearly 5 years now so it'll be a real blast from the past being up Lonetrek way

[stok]

.....And to be fair to Agony, I've never been on one of their classes before but I took the time to look at the previous signup threads to see what they look like (didnt want to screw up) and I (like many others) spotted the fake thread for what it was. A little care and attention along with some common sense would have overcome the temptation to post in the first thread that appeared.

Caveat Emptor!

Exactly my point. It's common sense to post in the enrollment threat made by agony. Perhaps people should read the FAQ first where they could have red about the enrollment rules. And like Carathas said, look at previous signups.

[MoragTong]

50 people signed up in the first minute according to the time stamps in the thread(11:17-11:18). How is that possible? I mean I know the class fills up fast, but how would they know the thread was open, since it didn't open "on-time"? I makes it hard to get in the class....just sayin'.

[Bamar]

50 people signed up in the first minute according to the time stamps in the thread(11:17-11:18). How is that possible? I mean I know the class fills up fast, but how would they know the thread was open, since it didn't open "on-time"?

I makes it hard to get in the class....just sayin'.

We have more people wanting to take our clases than we have spots for students. No matter how you divide things, that's the bottom line. We've tried to make things as fair as possible doing the delayed sign-ups. If you don't make the sign-ups unfortunately there's not much we can do, unless you're taking basic as a pre-req to join Agony as a corp. Other than that we do our best to supply the demand we have. No matter what we do someone will miss out, and to to those who do I'm sorry, but we limit our students so that we can provide a consistently good student experience, and I suggest you wait for the next basic class.

I've had students offering me hundreds of millions of isk, and I tell them all the same thing, to sign up for the open threads, if that doesn't work then watch out for the next, beyond that there's nothing we can do for you.

In the end we're real people in a real 0.0 corp, and there's only so much we can do to train new players.

We've been running pvp-u in the same way for 3 years now, if people mess up for 1 class, then they'll learn from their mistake for the next class. It's not our fault that you screwed up a sign-up, if you missed one, then you can make the next, it certainly isn't the longest someone has waited for a basic class. Fundamentally if someone signed up correctly I'm not going to punish them because you didn't. In the future sign up correctly and you won't have to worry about technicalities.

People can argue as much as they'd like, but that's the bottom line and that's how it'll be. We have a lot more demand than we have supply, and we have to set rules as to who gets that supply.

[DaDutchDude]

I'm kinda jumping in defense of Agony here, because it kinda annoys me how Agony seems to get blamed for something they didn't cause, while they already have put a lot of effort in to make things go well. I understand the disappointment, but it might be more constructive to think about what perhaps you did wrong instead of faulting Agony. I have done BASIC and two other classes, and knowing how fast the places fill up, I come prepared. 1) I read the PvPU FAQ and the sign-up thread very carefully to make sure I 100% understand what is required of me 2) I make sure I'm at my PC ahead of time and have some time to stay around after the sign up is supposed to open 3) I have the information I need to post in the sign up thread ready in my clipboard for pasting 4) I have the sign up thread open ahead of time 5) I press F5 like mad until thread opens, paste and post It's quite simple, but takes a little thought, planning and effort, but if you want something scarce (which PVPU classes are), then you should be prepared to do that. If you are unable or unwilling to do that, don't blame Agony for that. Your mistake is not Agony's, it is yours. If you take the time to read, you know everything you need to do, and if you aren't sure, ask ahead of time. If you don't have time to be there, it's your problem, not Agony's. If there is high demand, making the class fill up quickly, it's not Agony's fault, unless you want to fault them for giving great classes.

[Azual]

I'll leave the responses to more official people than myself, however a note on the FAQs etc: The FAQs are still relatively new. We've tried to design them to make the enrollment process as simple as possible but obviously there is a limit to how much we can spell out in the FAQs before things get convoluted and the really essential information is lost among the mess. At the end of the day, there's always the potential for people to get things wrong, especially in such a frantic situation as this, and that's life. We will always try to minimise the risk, and help those who are having trouble, but as I said there's only so much you can do before you start doing more harm that good; some things have to be left to common sense. Having said that, if there's something important that you feel is missing from the FAQs, or that needs making clearer, then feel free to send me a PM or just post in the Q&A thread etc about what you think is missing. There's no guarantee that it will be acted on right away, but I do try to keep those FAQs relevant to the things you guys actually need to know. As far as the wiki goes, I'm aware that it may no longer mirror the FAQs on the forum exactly (although it's still pretty close, and incidentally does still say 'under construction' in big writing at the top!) and that has potentially caused some confusion. Unfortunately I don't have rights to that article at the moment, however I am working on getting that brought up to date. In the meantime, please consider the forum FAQs as the more accurate of the two.

[Rennoc]

A little sorry I started this thread. I was just pissed off, because after waiting for a while, reading the different faqs and reloading the page so I don't miss the sign-up, boom a thread goes up and I think I'm good. Didn't pay much attention to the location of the thread, cause I was getting some RL aggro and had to go. Didn't mean to take it out on any Agony people, and I almost feel bad about calling the dope who started this, a moron. I'm just an old grumpy bastard that doesn't play well with others and really wants to learn how to blow them up better. Will be back for the next sign up. Until then, I hope I can shoot you before you shoot me.

[Daemonspirit]

A little sorry I started this thread. I was just pissed off, because after waiting for a while, reading the different faqs and reloading the page so I don't miss the sign-up, boom a thread goes up and I think I'm good. Didn't pay much attention to the location of the thread, cause I was getting some RL aggro and had to go. Didn't mean to take it out on any Agony people, and I almost feel bad about calling the dope who started this, a moron. I'm just an old grumpy bastard that doesn't play well with others and really wants to learn how to blow them up better.

Will be back for the next sign up. Until then, I hope I can shoot you before you shoot me.

Kewl, I'm a grumpy old dude too! We can knock these kids over with our walkers and shoot them with the lazers from our canes!

Thanks to the Agony guys for pointing out what happened and I'll (hopefully) see you on the next PVP Basic class.

D 8)

[Rakasha]

People who didn't like the sign-up system could at least suggest alternatives. Being a 25y old whose been playing mmorpgs for a while I did feel a bit old for "refresh the page" spam. At one point out of boredom I was counting the number of hits on the signup thread per second, I think it was between 6-8 hits per scond which is pretty impressive for the 70~ people online.

What I could humbly suggest is having one huge thread for signups each month. Lets say a thread for pvp basic eu timezone june thread where people put their names in. If you're within the first fifty replies, you have a decent chance to get in to the first class of that month. If you are the 100th person, then you'd probably make it to the 3. class of that month. Would also help the teachers get a rough idea of the real demand any maybe quickly open up a few more classes (or take it easy if the numbers are low).

So at the time of enrollment, an admin would take 50 names off the list, paste it in the enrollment thread and if anyone cant make it, they could send a notification.

This way at least if you have indeed 100 replies in front of you, your efforts are still not wasted.

The system is quite organised as it is anyway.

Edit, I did sign up on the fake thread even though it didn't look very real. As someone had already added on his sign-up "just in case" didn't really have anything to lose besides contributing to the chaos.

[Azual]

Ideas!

The problem with any system where people sign up before the class is twofold:

Firstly, you tend to get a lot of people who sign up and then when there turn comes they've lost interest or left the game or just can't be contacted. In an ideal situation these people would just let us know, but realistically the majority of them wouldn't. Sorting through the people who are already down and then crossing off those you can't get hold of etc actually means more admin work than what we have now!

Secondly, the demand, for BASIC especially, is much much higher than the supply. You would very quickly end up with a waiting list so long that you're signing up for classes long before you would actually get on one. Not only is this an issue in itself but it also exacerbates the first problem, since a longer wait means more people losing interest etc.

[Xena Jax]

After posting my response to the FlyBy class thread, I see your point. Maybe I should just say screw it and sign up for Agony. Hrm. Free classes at least right?!?!

[rells]

I remember when I had a tough time getting 15 people to sign up for a class. This just makes me smile despite the mess it caused. The fact that there is such amazing demand for classes from agony is pretty awesome. When I started the school most people laughed at me or said that the students were being idiots for paying for the course. Now we have people using refresh button spam to get in a class. Amazing.