[Feed Back] Stealth Bombers 20111119
#1
Posted 20 November 2011 - 01:38 AM
Anne Bonney, a notorious pirate in her own right, told her husband, Calico Jack Bonney, as he was captured by pirate hunters,
“if you'd have fought like a man you needn't hang like a dog”.
Done some class's
#2
Posted 20 November 2011 - 06:52 AM
Edited by Vjorn, 20 November 2011 - 08:43 AM.
Alumnus of
| BASIC | WOLFPACKS | COVOPS | ADVANCED | FLYBYS | STEALTH BOMBERS |
Fun Stuff
| Rell's Reunion | Suicide Dessies | Night of the Living Dramiels |
#3
Posted 20 November 2011 - 10:18 AM
Wiki article was good even without pictures, easy enough to work out. Whiteboard didn't work at all for me, no idea whether it was meant to or not - no big deal anyway, again easy enough to work out what was occurring.
Bomb runs. I was a bit puzzled as to the way Caldak was calling the squads - decloak, align, drop etc. Didn't seem like the right time to start a discussion about it though, was taking long enough to organise anyway.
I have always followed the mantra - align, decloak, drop bomb, warp. I don't decloak until I'm ready to drop & warp - I never decloak at zero velocity in other words . Maybe Caldak can explain why he was calling it the way he was? Seemed like a fair few people had bombs falling short because they weren't up to align speed - I know I got bombed twice at bookmark 2 (you know who you are ) and I was 35km from can.
Thanks to the Agony guys for bringing the BOPS battleships - nice for people who haven't bridged before, although I think we could have dealt with the timing of covert cyno/bridge a bit more. I'm not sure how many people now know the duration of a covert cyno and a covert jump portal - probably most do. Edit - the cyno going down as one guy jumped the bridge late was very fortunate, you need to remember to include that info for future classes as its not something most students would know.
Good class
Lets see how it goes tonight, will be a shorter roam than usual for Euros I guess as Monday beckons
MORAL, adj. Conforming to a local and mutable standard of right. Having the quality of general expediency.
#4
Posted 20 November 2011 - 11:11 AM
#5
Posted 20 November 2011 - 11:47 AM
Bomb runs. I was a bit puzzled as to the way Caldak was calling the squads - decloak, align, drop etc. Didn't seem like the right time to start a discussion about it though, was taking long enough to organise anyway.
I have always followed the mantra - align, decloak, drop bomb, warp. I don't decloak until I'm ready to drop & warp - I never decloak at zero velocity in other words . Maybe Caldak can explain why he was calling it the way he was? Seemed like a fair few people had bombs falling short because they weren't up to align speed - I know I got bombed twice at bookmark 2 (you know who you are ) and I was 35km from can.
I would guess that the reason for doing it this way was that people were having problems with ranges as it was (cf. your reference to bombs falling short). Decloak, align, drop means that you have the most accurate range on your bomb, as you don't have to account for time to get to max speed (which is different for different people due to different skils/fits). So if I'm sat at 30km with caldak's method, I know that my bomb will land dead centre on my target. With your method, I have to guess how much additional distance to add due the time it will take me to get to warp speed, and the FC has to guess when everyone has hit warp speed before he calls for decloak/bombs. Caldak's method has no guesswork involved.
The drawback is a larger window of vulnerability (equal to roughly whatever your align time is), but this has the mitigating factor of giving bombers the time to target and paint ships in the enemy fleet. It's possible that the enemy might have ships which would make this approach more dangerous (seboed thrashers and (post-buff) courmarants? spring to mind), so (as always) bear enemy fleet composition in mind when deciding between them.
As to my feedback - I think the course could do with better developed class materials. A lot of the module discussion could be moved to written material which could be reviewed before class, which would speed up that part of the course. A diagram of the bombing method used would also have helped with initial comprehension, as I think a lot of people didn't really understand what they were doing until they saw it in action.
I would also have liked to see (and practice) some of the other bombing methods. We did "decloak, bomb, warp" but it might have been nice to see "warp, bomb, cloak" also, as well as talk a little bit about the advantages and disadvantages of each.
Finally, if I'm honest, I'm disappointed with our performance generally at bombing. It's extremely sensitive to errors (far more than most fleet compostions in eve), and one small mistake in execution can mean the difference between 25 enemy ships blowing up and ridicule in local. I realise it was getting late and people were tired, but I would strongly encourage people to get on Sisi today before the roam and have another practice as we will need as close to flawless execution as possible.
#6
Posted 20 November 2011 - 11:54 AM
WOLFPACKS-20111021
COVOPS-SB-20111119
ADVANCED-20111216
FLYBYS-20120324
I must not fear.
Fear is the mind – killer.
Fear is the little – death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.
#7
Posted 20 November 2011 - 12:07 PM
MORAL, adj. Conforming to a local and mutable standard of right. Having the quality of general expediency.
#8
Posted 20 November 2011 - 12:44 PM
It would have been a good thing if we had access to the advanced reading material beforehand, with pictures. The whiteboard scribblings weren't that helpful.
The "seeing is believing" approach concerning the modul effects (damp, paint) is very good as it keeps the learnt stuff better in the back of your head.
Also, the BlackOps bridge was a very welcome variety in this long class. It felt good, for once, not to be on the receiving end of hotdrops.
The practice bomb runs were extremely informative for me.
Actually, I never heard Caldak calling "align". He called "decloak, bombs away" assuming you were already aligned...? Being in squad 4 I only listened to commands to sq3 and sq4.Bomb runs. I was a bit puzzled as to the way Caldak was calling the squads - decloak, align, drop etc. Didn't seem like the right time to start a discussion about it though, was taking long enough to organise anyway.
For me the tricky thing in a multi-squad attack was to time the align run. My attack point in squad 4 was 40k away so I started my align run when when sq3 had released their bombs. That would have me at 30k off the target when the "squad 4 decloak, bombs away" order came. The second paint-damp attack made this timing trickier since sq3 was longer on grid.
What struck me kinda funny was that my shrapnel bomb always yielded exactly 40.0 damage according to log. Was there a concussion bomb in my squad, is Fortuna a bitch (yes, she is) or was that a bug of my log?
What was dearly missing, probably out of time constraints, were torpedo tactics. In the advance material I saw the very familiar FlyBy maneuver, but this is only familiar to me since I trained it in the FLYBY class with arty Thrashers. Maybe in the future, with prepared BMs on SiSi, you could include 1 or 2 flybys as torpedo attack practice.
Anyways, I'm now really hot hot hot on a live run on Tranq, even if it turns out to be a "Night of the Decloaking Death"
P.S.: Tranq looks really ugly after the SiSi sessions.
BASIC - 1403091800
WOLFPACKS - 2103091800 | FLYBYS - 20110212
ADVANCED - 0404091800 | ADVANCED HSSR - 0805102300
COVOPS - 1804090001 | SKIRMISH - 20110129 | BOMBERS - 20111119
#9
Posted 20 November 2011 - 01:35 PM
P.S.: Tranq looks really ugly after the SiSi sessions.
Indeed. I loved watching the effect when someone jumped the bridge. It'll take a while to get tired of that one.
MORAL, adj. Conforming to a local and mutable standard of right. Having the quality of general expediency.
#10
Posted 20 November 2011 - 02:14 PM
Sisi, was a fantastic idea tbh, sure there was some pain getting it working, but awesome for everyone to do live excercise, see just how dangerous every moment in your Stealth Bomber is, without the usual risk/reward factor of Eve.
Thanks for reminding everyone i'm a total gimp Sir Locatus I honestly still cannot believe I actually managed to inadvertantly press "f2"... worst was I had no idea i'd even done it or where it had gone as i was focusing on bookmarks at the time, until Caldak started shouting at me :-/ Pretty sure that one goes down in the "Fail Journal".
OKey, the TL;DR technical stuff.
Ewar Discussion: Gotta disagree with some here. This was imperative. How to utilise specific modules is very different from the other gangs we have run, and the time and detail was highly nessescary. Most of the modules did get linked randomly in chat I thought? But to be honest, everyone should have a grasp of the different varieties by now. If not then your not practising what you've been learning, and/or just turning up to the roams and further classes with cookie cutter builds, which is kinda the 90% of what these classes are teaching us how not to do.
Gotta agree with Othran, I also tend to have a certain perspective on a particular module for a particular role, but in Caldak's classes often he'll highlight when a module I'd overlooked or disregarded would be valuable, this also comes from other Students too I might add.
Bombing Runs: Pretty good I thought. Went fairly well. Again, being honest with you guys, if at this point you're still having trouble setting up tacs, figuring out ranges, following instructions (aside from don't press "f2") maybe you need to revisit the earlier classes.
This probably did take too long to get set up, but that is not a fault of the instruction, this was an advanced class and therefore it is expected all students should be proficient in the previous class material.
In the end, there was a fair old amount of damage being done, and people begining to get to grips with the timing, and being able to get some Ewar applied, which I think was the point in slowing dowing the "Uncloak, align, engage, warp" process.
I think everyone can see this is all down to practise and lots of it. Without this class, all the initial messing about to figure out how the hell it all works is very expensive.
Jump Bridging: Invaluable. Took me a while to get up to speed on exactly, who was where, using what modules and fuel and how it worked. But was worth puzzling it out, excellent knowledge to hold. Perhaps alittle more step by step explantion of exactly what was happening would help? I'm no stranger to having used bridges, and cyno'd in plenty carriers. But never done the covert cynos, nor wholely understood jumpbridging from the perspective of actually setting one up, so thanks for this especially, but yes, a tad confusing.
Gate Camps: Almost forgot this. Perfect. Exactly what folks need. A real live fire gatecamp to see exactly how to get through.
I lived in null before I'd even understood how to evade gate camps. At first they seemed inpossible (especially bubblecamps) but got a couple of bubblers in my corp to set up a camp while we practised getting through. Nothing more valuable than actually doing this. I urge anyone to even practise what you learned last night, when you come through friendly highsec gates. Hold your cloak, gather your thoughts, imagine your in a bubble and there are hostiles. Run throguh exactly how to escape. It can only help
For day one;
I'll give the written Class material: B
I'll give the practical lessons: Pass with distinction
I'll give Caldak, his instruction (and shouting at me): 5 Stars
Edited by sundarbolt, 20 November 2011 - 02:22 PM.
#11
Posted 20 November 2011 - 07:29 PM
#12
Posted 20 November 2011 - 08:21 PM
#13
Posted 21 November 2011 - 02:13 AM
Experience for the guys coming down from Stacmon to 31-MLU. I would say that was worth its weight in gold.
Use your Intel, Take advantage when one fleet scares another away. Slip in between and get safe, not 1 ship lost as prove that you can do it with having agony leading you along.
Wormholes found, down to 1 that could be used. To Fountain, some targets but nothing we could take advantage of. Carriers, Mining Ops ect all to the POS's when a unfriendly was in system.
The big fleet was do-able but with the lack of getting a bubble anchored to setup on. Wasn't going to happen.
2 Tempest kills in LSC and missing out at the end as the POS was re-enforced was a pity. Note to self to read other channels.
1 - very nice kill in PF on the gate was a nice touch and proves that it can be done.
Strengths:
Lots of Deeps and Ewar. Very mobile and ability to reach far into enemy space. Even with chaining cyno's it can be done.
Weakness:
The lack of scouts that can light Co-Ops Cyno's is very telling.
Only 1 Blackops ship also limits abilities.
More Wormholes and scouts a big plus.
Looks like people don't want to fight a class, seeing fleets engage others in systems next door then just by pass us is, well jaw dropping.
We had no Logistics, no Falcons or any other recons, they had eyes on us. Just goes to show that they will fight Agony with class or not.
The last few times has been a big No.
So we will have to lift our acts in getting setup or use more cloaking Dictors to catch stuff.
Have thought of a few more ways to engage, but thats for the next class.
Will run the class again and polish my material, will be on SISI the theory. It showed its self as the way to run practical show and tells.
A Big thanks to the Agony that came along as support and help.
Another to the class people that were scouting, reconing and looking for targets.
Anne Bonney, a notorious pirate in her own right, told her husband, Calico Jack Bonney, as he was captured by pirate hunters,
“if you'd have fought like a man you needn't hang like a dog”.
Done some class's
#14
Posted 21 November 2011 - 02:59 AM
Bomb runs. I was a bit puzzled as to the way Caldak was calling the squads - decloak, align, drop etc. Didn't seem like the right time to start a discussion about it though, was taking long enough to organise anyway.
I have always followed the mantra - align, decloak, drop bomb, warp. I don't decloak until I'm ready to drop & warp - I never decloak at zero velocity in other words . Maybe Caldak can explain why he was calling it the way he was?
Sometimes there is a lag; especially if there is a large fleet that you're trying to bomb running on the server node. As a result; if you don't give the server a second or two to register that you are decloaked then you can't launch your bomb and may accidentally be warped away without ever deploying your bomb.
This is less of an issue when you are warping in and immediately dropping your bomb because you're invulnerability from your warp tunnel keeps you save and you can "spam" your bomb button as you land knowing you are fully aligned with your warp tunnel
When you are already on grid with the targets often they will be landing in a bubble and will have a few seconds of their warp left where they can't target you to keep you safe.
But if the enemy is already sitting on grid and you are not in warp then being decloaked for that extra second can often get you killed. Bombing run fits often use stabs or a medium shield extender to survive a volley and avoid being tackled by a long point. But you are correct that the less time you are decloaked on grid the safer you tend to be.
For large fleets we use optimized overview settings with nothing on them except, no brackets, maybe your warpout celestial if you're feeling brave. But lag kills.
If you're not having fun you're doing it wrong.
#15
Posted 21 November 2011 - 03:09 AM
#16
Posted 21 November 2011 - 06:08 AM
#17
Posted 21 November 2011 - 07:51 AM
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?214306]WOLFPACKS-20100828[/link]
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?232075.0]COVOPS - 281101800[/link]
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/14456-closed-new-pvp-advanced-may-14th15th-1600/]ADVANCED-20110514[/link]
KISS CLUB
R.
#18
Posted 21 November 2011 - 08:47 AM
MORAL, adj. Conforming to a local and mutable standard of right. Having the quality of general expediency.
#19
Posted 21 November 2011 - 03:12 PM
WOLFPACKS-20111021
COVOPS-SB-20111119
ADVANCED-20111216
FLYBYS-20120324
I must not fear.
Fear is the mind – killer.
Fear is the little – death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.
#20
Posted 21 November 2011 - 03:31 PM
#21
Posted 21 November 2011 - 05:24 PM
MORAL, adj. Conforming to a local and mutable standard of right. Having the quality of general expediency.
#22
Posted 21 November 2011 - 06:37 PM
#23
Posted 21 November 2011 - 07:26 PM
Wondering though, is Syndicate played out in terms of class roams?
Possibly but a gang size 20+ is likely to meet the same response in most npc space now.
MORAL, adj. Conforming to a local and mutable standard of right. Having the quality of general expediency.
#24
Posted 21 November 2011 - 08:11 PM
I got a chance to redeem myself at least a tiny bit by informing the agony skirmishers and petra whom where doing a roleplay engagement that an earlier spotted proteus was coming their way, which I like to think at least contributed a little bit to them expecting it and being able to catch it.
Thanks for stepping up on scouting, roigon (and any of the other CovOps students that helped out on the roam). Caldak is a great FC to run as eyes for.
I was very sorry to be shut out of the action due to internet problems so I'm happy you were there to contribute to the killing.
#25
Posted 21 November 2011 - 08:46 PM
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/9285-closed-pvp-basic-20-21-feb-1800/]BASIC - 20100220[/link] | [link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/9531-closed-pvp-wolfpacks-12-13-march-2200/]WOLFPACKS - 1203102200[/link] | [link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/9701-closed-pvp-advanced-march-26th-27th/]ADVANCED - 2603102400[/link] | [link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/10390-closed-pvp-advanced-hssr-78-may-2300/]ADVANCED HSSR - 0805102300[/link]
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/11982-fullpvp-covops-19-sept-1800/]COVOPS - 1909101800[/link] | FLYBYS - 20110212 | Stealth Bombers COVOPS-SB-20111119