37 replies to this topic

[Caldak]

Right Feed back. Guns - EFT versus real shooting. Bubbles - Fly byes and trapping ect.. Fighting, what can you do ? Range, Ewar, Alpha damage, : Ctrl to freeze window, Sort by ship type. So we done alot, had a quick fight. So what do you need changed, more in depth. Here is the roam. VV pocket - so dead, so boring. We seen 3 separate gangs ans not 1 would go for us. All we ended up with was 2 BattleShips that tried to Smartbomb us. Round 2, M2 gang runs from us, they get Hot Dropped by 3 carriers and Co. We arrive to have Rooks & Kings counter drop. Think if they waited 3 sec's longer we could of helped them to 3 instead of 1 Carrier kill. On we went. X-M after 1/2 of the fleet left, we baited a group in. Nice kills and the guys did well. Even a Tengu. The rest of there guys stayed away. F-XWIN after they smacked us they came to the bubble and yes not a bad fight. They ran but came back when they seen they actually had more ships than us, think to save the T3 too. BMNV - clockwork came and played, by that time we were down to 20. 7 kills including a Phobos. Wasn't bad trade for 3 thrashers. Could of gotten more but lack tackle. Scrams = targets .. Ended with a Drake that was in the wrong place in 31-. So for 9 hrs roam, slow going. RVB would of been a good fight, but they got cross dropped by Rooks & Kings and went down before we even really got to see them. Going to do a Arranged fight with RVB and have some fun. They field around 80 easily. So something in the end. Do 50 odd thrashers really scare people that much? Nope there are some out that will come to fight. Just not the care bears who think that loosing a ship is the end of there eve career. Thanks to Agony suppourt. Pity it didn't go the way I was hoping. Just because people kill stuff in a certain time zone, doesn't mean they will fight us. Thinking of taking the classes to some older spots to start off again. I declare Syndicate a Care Bear Crying Docking Zone.

[roigon]

First of all, great class, any theory class that ends in shooting people is a better one in my book. Fly-by demonstration was very informative, knowing the concept and seeing it happen are really two separate things. Also punting people out of the station was very amusing, and you've convinced me that having a small bookmark sub-folder window open is better then right clicking in space all the time. (although with my current setup I think only 20% of my screen is space now. really need to get dual monitors)

One thing that could perhaps be improved which came up in class as well is in the accompanying wiki material, and make clear whether the wolfpack class is arty trasher exclusive or not. PVP-WOLFPACKS says arty trasher, PVP-WOLFPACKS Preparation Checklist allows all dessies, Recommended Setups for PVP-Wolfpacks has setups for all dessies again.

I'd say adding a notice that currently the wolfpack class requires a arty trasher to those other pages would make things a lot clearer while retaining the more generic info.

Secondly in class when this came up you said you'd take any dessie (or at least that's what I understood), but on the forums Corywyn notes that it's trasher only really. A more unified voice in this would make it all the more clear, although I guess this difference stems from the same reason those wiki pages don't agree.

[sundarbolt]

Another great berth of topics covered. In an old alliance we spent forever trying to do a sniper cormie fly-by he'd once heard about from a guy who knew someone who'd done this class. Learning about it last night was great, actually doing it (poor Marvin) was even better. More on bookmarks was all good, especially the subfolders idea. Think i'm gonna have to spend a couple of hours re-organising mine. Although I'm not sure the class really gets across to Students who haven't spent much time in Null how critical these are? Some kind of excercise to show simply navigating 0.0 without a set of tacs is nigh impossible in anything other than covops/inty. Expanding the understanding on guns is always a positive, the more your know, the longer you live. I think the low/mid slot balance, alpha, and speed of the Thrasher make it perfect for what the Wolfpack is all about, updating the wiki to reflect this would help as I get the feeling we will have a far more diverse fleet tonight, with slower ships, less alpha, and ppl fielding 0 Ewar Coercers. The engagement at the end: Well, mixed bag here. Honestly, I feel a bit of a negative is pretty good in this environment as it showed up alittle lack of focus, I think primary and secondary instapopped and after that we lost cohesion and neghated our Alpha advantage. Everyone wil probably feel a bit like I do in that I didn't perform as I'd expected too and will re-double by focus for tonight. That being said, we still took out some juicy targets that will have hurt their owners' wallets somewhat, far more than our losses will have hurt ours.. which really just goes to illustrate the power of this Wolfpack concept.

[AkJon Ferguson]

Thanks to the scouts, skirmishers, dictors, logi, tam artists as always. As far as overpowered ships go, I've never flown one as overpowered (for the cost) as a blackbird before. Sitting 70km off the fight (I could have been further but I wanted to fire missiles) with my 5 little 'I win' buttons. It made me feel dirty. Or when we'd gank someone the poor bastard wouldn't even get to go down swinging. It reminded me of what I hated about lotro pvp, the 'crowd control' that would incapacitate me, leave me defenseless/stunned/rooted, unable to act, followed shortly thereafter by death. It doesn't mean I won't ever fly it again (I'd rather CCP not have overpowered boats, but if they insist on having them I'm not going to unilaterally disarm and not fly them) but it would make me very happy if CCP gave ECM a hearty (and well-deserved) kick in the nuts. That's why I didn't feel like any of the fleets that avoided us deserved the scorn that was heaped on them. We had 8 (or whatever it was) blackbirds, who wants to engage that? Anytime a gang is saturated with ECM boats or logi boats it's usually prudent to keep moving imo. Aside from all that, we had some good kills and good fights and I'm glad I got to try something new even if it's not really my cup of tea.

[Kara Thrayce]

Day 1

• Work limited my time to 2 hours, less if fleet setup is included, but the fleet was organised fast.
• Didn't get to fly
• Informative
• I hate work.

Day 2

• Fast fleet setup again. Big difference from Basic since people know the drill by now.
• Learned about ammo ranges. Was unprepared for first half so I was limited to short range fights.
• I was within 20km of initial engagements, so I got lucky with my ammo
• Got final blow on something or other. Lot's of KM whoring. Wee!
• Sickened by lack of willingness of others to fight. Highly recommend Evefags unsubscribe and go play Tetris in the safety and comfort of their own home.
• Was glad to see fellow RvB'ers out and about. Wish we had more of a chance to brawl. Maybe next time.
• Wish we had more willing targets.
• Learned my sensor booster is pretty much useless for this roam. Tried to swap out, but had fitting issues and limited time to experiment before 2nd half of roam.
• Now have yellow sticky attached to monitor for quick ammo reference and more ammo in my hold.

I will attend more Wolfpack classes and roams in future as Alumni. I had a great time. Fleet members were fantastic. Everyone followed orders well. Movement was smooth. I got TONS of free TACs (free because I didn't die in a fire) This got me home safely since I logged out a bit early.

[Caldak]

Got to have a say for ECM. Over powered, they can bring it,any good pilot can fit ship out to counter ECM. They really not that silly when drones are flooding them ect. I fly a drake specially to go against ECM boats. I would have loved to have run into any gate camps with what we had to show you the strength of the combo. What we had was needed to even the difference between us only in Thrasher hulls versus whats out there. The win button is a Titan, look at the fights others get because they can drop numbers when people think its a 8 man fleet turns into a 50 man blob. If you cab field Tempest + Logi + others, then a few thrashers should be play stuff. I would any day take on what we had with 20 pilots and be happy. No mate, you did your job in a ship that's meant for it. Look at what happens when you drop anything more than a handful on the field. Drams that can out run anything, Faction Battleships with Carrier support, Kiting Zealot Armour hack gangs, not mentioning some good Pirate Faction BS you can go with. If they can't think out side of we got 3 versus your 1 then its problem. Long Live ECM in my little Wolfpack gangs.

[Agnes Nitt]

Thanks to Caldak for great class and roam. Maybe roam was slow but I'll learned so much from it. I wouldn't change anything in wolfpacks course since all my questions are answered and I got lot of experience from roam and that are the things that I come for. Thanks again and I hope that I'll be part of next wolfpacks course as alumni.

[Petra]

A brilliant 2nd day roam as always,I think there where too many Caldack's around for people to engage in the first half! , second half was much more enjoyable cos' we blew up more stuff and I got my second killmail ever even if it was only for another thrasher, now all I need is another 32(without dieing) and I will have a 50:50 ratio lol. I did get podded through my own stupidity, I warped my pod right into where the opposition ran off to for reinforcements, ah well such is death. earlier on it was fun seeing how the stealth bombers died when engaged properly, it was very illuminating and props to everybody who took them down so quickly. I've just seen that Caldak's running a course on SB's perhaps he should invite them ( not to rub it in of course ) cya all on the next roam and if I can manage it, the bomber class

[qwertz_fan]

Big thanks for another awesome roam and I apologize for not calling any jams later in the roam, I hope you understand that at 4AM local time I have to avoid RL aggro from the *hehe* "sleepers". Rest assured I did my best to cause rage among the ranks of the enemy.

I tried to type out jams in chat, but that's never really going to work I guess.

Is ECM overpowered? Guess so, my loss rate on a Caldak roam is usually 3+, my Blackbird made it home without a scratch.

I declare Syndicate a Care Bear Crying Docking Zone.

That's one Bio worthy quote here.

[roigon]

The roam was wonderful, while at first largely uneventful the later part was nice. Using the same tactic with the bubble over and over again was really nice in hammering down the concept around a wolfpack, dictating range and location, then using a tac or tam as a quick escape and moving back into the fray again. I think I can dream that setup just about now. Which is a good thing. Seeing a double plated megathron literally melt to this setup against a swarm of destroyers also was a nice touch in the amount of firepower. Of course topped off with some awesome jamming from the BB's to it couldn't actually fight back all that much.

[Sir Locutus]

Thanks for greate roam and class. Especialy for Caldak for his time ( tip sent ) , also for other Agony and Alumni for scouting , support and BB pilots for blinding our enemies. Big thanks for Greygal for narration , when i saw "FC i pleased" and similar i almost felt from my chair. I'd like to appologize for messing up things on1st day in WH while training fly-by on Drake , i had provlems with fleet view and overwiev also ( thanks to CCP ) and i was unable to call targets and report track's / disrupt's in last fight before regrouping in 31-. With wife sleeping 2 meters from me at 5am would not be the smartest move . I've lerned much on both days , good organisation , scouting and plying with bubbles. Seeing enemies running away was also fun and frustrating.

Next time if we want some engagements we should avoid naming ships indicating Caldak presence but we have at least one carrier so its good.

[Kalar Freno]

I'd just echo what so many have said previously. The class was great - useful material covered and the practical demonstration in the WH was great as well. I really enjoyed the fight on the first day also, even if we didn't come out of it very well. The roam was disappointing - as GG said it's a shame so many would rather sit there watching their ships go round and round rather than actually playing the game. But what can you do? I learnt a lot from the roam in terms of fleet movement and managing recon, and I picked up a lot of bms! It's a shame we didn't get to do the fight with RvB - that would have been fun. Hopefully we can set it up for another time. Looks like I missed a few good fights after I logged off "early" (2am my time!) I did think about logging in again after I dealt with the baby, but I was really struggling to keep my eyes open! Looking forward to a bit more pew pew next time! ETA: About the ECM, I really don't think it's that OP. Yes, it's powerful when you pull it off, but so is triple damping a drake (or an ECM boat!), or triple track disrupting a hurricane. ECM ships usually run almost no tank whatsoever, so they're easy kills for the enemy if he catches them out of position - they reward good play and clever use of tactics which is a good thing in my opinion. If they were really that overpowered, you'd see a lot more of them about. EWAR in general is a big force multiplier, and I think thats the way it should be. ECM is perhaps more frustrating (you have to sit there and do nothing, the track disrupted hurricane doesn't feel as disabled), but that's a player problem, not a game one.

[Vora]

I'm just chiming in here to let you know that RVB was on the way to meet you in a 70+ cruiser fleet (theme: Cinderella - crap ships - good fits, so mostly Moa, Celestis, Bellicose etc.).

We came all the way down from Vale just to be intercepted by Rooks+Kings in 6E- at the ZVN gate. They shredded our fleet to pieces as Maudite can confirm since he had a front seat to this massacre. Tons of Navy Apocs and they even cynoed in carriers... those guys mean serious business.
It was a pity that we didn't meet (I even had an extra pack of Caldari Navy Piranha Light Missiles for my alumni collegues ).

Grats on the carrier kill!

Next time. We know where you play...

[Xolanie]

Another great course - I (being a noob) learn a great deal from these especially all the game mechanics. Day 1 I did better with this time than I did on the basic, I surprised myself that most of the info had actually sunk in, still abit confusing for me at times but im sure i'll get to grips with it all over a few more Day 2 I went out in the Black Bird (I love that ship), I think you appreciate it even more after a roam in a Griffin when I felt like the piep piper of eve with swarms of drones up my ass. With the BB I could sit out at 100Km and jam with no problems at all, even had a few jamed at upto 150Km. I personally dont think they are that OP when u can and do end up with an alarming number of yellow/red boxes in the overview if your not on the ball with distance. Flying the BB I do feel more pressure to do better and survive, had to use alot of manual piloting to avoid orbiting close to other ships and to make sure I was at a big enough distance away from a TAC so I could bounce around. I didn't fully understand about getting dragged into a bubble either until I experienced it first hand, was sat at 200Km behind the main fleet, fleet was outside the bubble, we had targets caught in the bubble, I warped to 100 from a fleet member outside the bubble and ended up landing inside it - heart stopping moment when you see you have enemy ships about 15Km away from you . Had another sticky moment when we were on the move, jumped into a system and ended up in a bubble (one of ours i think), franticly looking for a celestial to allign and burn too, enemy ship behind us, ships popping all around, then had 6/7 ships target me, trying to stay calm and jam them as I got a lock on them, shields dropped to 50% instantly, then Caldak (like a voice from an angel) says over TS to warp to him, right click Caldak > warp to, only then to see my ship turn back round to face the bubble , warp kicks in and I just make it out in one piece All in all, great experience and looking forward to the next one Thanks to everyone involved, Xol P.S please ignore the spelling

[sundarbolt]

Feedback on the roam. Well, that pretty much summed up PvP in EVE for me. Sometimes, dull, protracted games of cat and mouse until the enemy finally bottles it and your left standing there with your d*ck in your hand... and then you get a Thanatos mail, law,l. Either way while difficult to keep the level of focus required when you can't get a fight for love nor money, flying with you guys (Agony and Alumni alike) is a real pleasure. Such fun fleets. I think the Students who stuck at the Roam till later, really got their rewards, a few of real good engagements in which you guys performed well. The discipline and organisation demonstrated by Students, after only one or two classes was pretty impressive. This is really the best measure of just how good a job you're doing Caldak A+, would do again. Thanks to Caldak and Agony guys, awesome job and to all the Alumni, you guys really make for some fun times

[Prudance]

Excellent roam as usual. Many thanks to Caldak and all Agony. Here's looking forward to the next class/roam

[Caldak]

I think the Students who stuck at the Roam till later, really got their rewards, a few of real good engagements in which you guys performed well.
The discipline and organisation demonstrated by Students, after only one or two classes was pretty impressive.

The above is so true. For the short amount of time people have to get use to the way we do thing when out and about. Every FC you fly with will want to do things different, use different ways of getting the fleet to gel together like he wants. Basics I let things run and go into a mess, overwhelming odds and dying is a must in a Basic class.
Wolfpacks people should be able to alive longer, warp out and back, less mistakes of going to wrong gates, jump thru when not called and the like.
Also you will be outnumbered, out gunned by others. But should have a cool head and get safe ect after a fight.

Advanced is were I can expect people to know the drill, step up to tasks when asked <- see that Alumni peoples. Concepts should be coming together with less
of the enemy getting away. And know the ship you flying.

On any specialized side course like the up coming Stealth Bomber, Will tell you in class

[Aethena]

Really enjoyed both the class & the roam. While I was an Alumni, I still went to the class day – I did the same with Basics and I've found that I pick up something different the second time around (especially with different instructors) and some of the concepts take repeating before I get that 'a-ha!' moment. Fly-bys were new to me, and I felt I learned a lot more about bubbles (where they should be placed, where you should wait for your victims, erm, targets, etc.) The roam was great, even though it took some time to find targets. Even when there's nothing to shoot at, getting the experience of fleet movement (at times under pressure) is really helpful. After each roam, I feel like I'm improving. And the roams are always a lot of fun – it was great to get another carrier kill (even if it was just the one!) and I was amazed at how fast those bombers went down. One thing I continually struggle with is targeting opponents in large-scale battles. I always have problems finding the called targets in amongst all the flashing bars. I usually give up after a few seconds and just pick someone close to me, but I feel like I waste valuable time doing even that. Any hints or is it just something that will come with practice? Thanks again to Caldak and all the Agony folks who make these classes and roams happen!

[Othran]

One thing I continually struggle with is targeting opponents in large-scale battles. I always have problems finding the called targets in amongst all the flashing bars. I usually give up after a few seconds and just pick someone close to me, but I feel like I waste valuable time doing even that. Any hints or is it just something that will come with practice?

Umm what do you have on overview during these battles?

If you have everyone on grid showing and you have all brackets on then its going to go sloooowwww. The UI part of the screen is an overlay and isn't on the same render path as the ships/effects. This means its more CPU-dependent than GPU-dependent and as Eve is a single-thread application that's pretty bad news.

I typically have everyone not in fleet showing with brackets on. If its still slow then brackets get turned off.

Effects and ships are going to be GPU dependent.

HTH - if it doesn't then say

[Greygal]

I thoroughly enjoyed the roam, as I always do. Shame it took so long to get into some real heavy-duty heart-pounding fights ... but as always, dang good fun! For me, especially the last few roams I've been on, I find myself concentrating more on what the FC is *planning* to do, how he is moving the fleet, the traps he is laying and the reading of the opponent fleet, I find I'm trying to get inside the FC's "head" more (scary a place that may be!), in order to not only anticipate what is about to happen, but to better improve my own skills not only as a member of the fleet but for my own fleet command duties, rare and small that they may be. I've got it down how to be a member of the fleet - I know how to grab the target, shoot, load up secondary and tertiary while primary going down, staying at my optimal range, aligned, paying better attention to what is happening around me to better survive, bouncing, etc. By spending more of my concentration on what the FC is planning, and understanding it, I find I'm surviving better, enjoying the roam even more, and challenging myself in ways I didn't think would exist - plus it helps when I'm doing the secretary stuff to really *understand* what's going on. It's not enough to just be a blob... anyone can put together a blob, be a blob... it's what you do with that blob and how you place it and move it that makes a major difference towards successful fleet fights. Today's roam in particular advanced my understanding of fleet strategy more than perhaps any of the other roams, since we spent so much time setting up for fights that never happened. I actually found myself sitting back in my chair going "AH HA! I GET IT!" twice during the roam, when Caldak had us positioning ourselves in particular ways. I love lightbulb moments I liked that I was actually able to explain in chat to some of the others WHY we were doing what we were doing - that was so cool to me, I actually *got* it! The big "got it" for me today was the ECM squad. In particular, the moving of the ECM squad behind us or apart from us. So often I see ECM as part of the blob in other fleets, and have myself done that - had our ECM guys flying *with* the fleet. I really *got it* today what a big mistake that is - a fleet can't properly protect one of its greatest assets if it is in the middle of the battle, much less properly utilize them. I disagree with the thought that ECM is overpowered. In our corp, we often advise new players to go for ECM ships - the Blackbird in particular - as a way to be highly effective with minimal skills. Get a new player into a blackbird in their first week or so of playing, they are having far more fun and really feeling like a useful member of the corp/fleet real fast. It's my standard answer to "crap, I'm a noob, I can't help or do anything fun or good till I've got millions of skill points." Unfortunately, it's been so effective at helping new players become effective quickly that too many of them end up moving on to other more-pvp oriented corps than ourselves... sigh... Besides, there are effective counter-measures to ECM ships - is it our fault if other fleets fail to take advantage of those modules and strategies? As always, I'm absolutely thrilled and impressed with what Agony does and the opportunity you offer to us non-Agony members to participate in a realm of playing Eve that isn't always feasible or available to us bloodthirsty industrialists and carebears with teeth ... not every corporation or alliance is interested in this side of Eve, or has the ability to field the numbers put together for these classes, or understands the mechanics enough or has the time to invest. I get so excited every time I see another class planned that I can attend as an alumni, or as is the case of the upcoming stealth bombers class - be a student again! Thanks to all that you do, Agony, and especially to Caldak ... I swear I practically worship the space ya'll fly in!

[Greygal]

One thing I continually struggle with is targeting opponents in large-scale battles. I always have problems finding the called targets in amongst all the flashing bars. I usually give up after a few seconds and just pick someone close to me, but I feel like I waste valuable time doing even that. Any hints or is it just something that will come with practice?

I still have problems with this occasionally - and partly due to my crappy computer. Remember that holding down your control bar will stop the overview from moving. Never have fleet members on any overview setting, and it's a good idea to also not have biomass and wrecks on your primary pvp overview.

Because of overview lag and my crappy computer, I created an overview that shows ONLY non-fleet ships. Nothing else, no wrecks, no planets, no bombs, no brackets, nothing. I don't use it very often, but find it very helpful when I know we are about to go into a battle against a large number of ships. Most of the time, the standard Agony recommended overview settings work fine for me - as most often we're fighting against smaller fleets. But if we're going up against more than about 15, 20 targets, I swap to this overview, that I call my "naked" overview. I also created several other overviews that I find helpful at times: an ECM only one, a Logistics only one, and a Battlecruiser only one. I just quickly load whatever is needed into my 5th overview tab, which I keep kind of open to whatever is needed at the time, while my other four tabs remain dedicated to specific overviews (GTFO, PVP, Naked, Traveling-Looting). When I know that we're going up against large numbers and that, for example, the logistics ships are the primary targets, I'll load that overview setting real fast and see only them, as they die I then swap to my "naked" overview (which is on a tab) or my standard pvp overview (which is also a tab). (Or, unfortunately sometimes, I'm swapping to my "GTFO" celestial/station/gates only tab!) I don't have all the ship types and purposes memorized yet... may never get them memorized... having ship-specific overviews has been tremendously helpful to me, even though they don't get a lot of use.

I actually used my ship-specific overview settings twice in the roam yesterday.

I find it helpful also to swap back and forth from sorting by distance and sorting by name. For example, as I land into the battle, I have my overview sorted by name, to more quickly find the primary, secondary, and tertiary (if one is called). I have gotten into the habit of targeting the secondary first, then the primary - because most of the time the primary is already dead by the time I'm locked. If the primary is still alive I'm putting my guns on him/her, if not (more often than not) my guns are going onto the secondary immediately. Regardless, whichever my guns are actually on, I'm then targeting the tertiary (if one has been called). Once I've got those three loaded, I resort my overview by distance so I can then quickly move to something else if any of those three are not in optimal, or already dead. Occasionally I am out of range on any of the called targets, so I just grab whatever is closest and weakest or shows as already having some damage.

Ultimately, it's most important that your bullets are being put to use, after all. When all else fails, grab what you can and shoot

[Sarek Minyatar]

Because of overview lag and my crappy computer, I created an overview that shows ONLY non-fleet ships. Nothing else, no wrecks, no planets, no bombs, no brackets, nothing.

This has nothing to do with your computer - this is the only way to do it. I only very rarely switch to a overview that shows fleet members, to check my distance to them. I do show brackets for fleet members though, unless it becomes really laggy. The only thing I'm showing besides hostiles are star gates and the sun - those are common align directions and it's good to have them in that list IMHO, so you don't need to search for them when the FC calls for them. Wrecks and Planets and stuff like that have no place in a PVP overview. Bombs and Probes, why not.

[John McGuirk]

Excellent roam. Thank you Caldak and all the scouts, skirmishers, and support. T011PHR33 (codename tofu) deserves special thanks for taking on the extra workload of burning TAMs for the ECM crew. He was in Agony ECM channel the whole time, which I feel worked great. I'm very happy with the ECM squad, both from a signup perspective and performance perspective. Thanks to those who came out for it, I hope it was fun for you as well. For not having our own TS channel, I think everyone did a great job of not getting lost and getting set up fast to support fights. Tofu was instrumental in this as well, I'm just saying it wasn't generally a clusterhump. In the ECM pre-brief, Caldak asked if we would like our own TS channel. Ideally, yes, but I think we're going to have to think a little more deeply about use and best practices for it before implementing it.

What went well (from my narrow perspective)
ECM squad, primarily thanks to Caldak's use of us (more on this below)
"Agony ECM" channel
The X-M fight against Dark Phoenix Rising. Caldak had ECM set up with plenty of time, and I think we just slowboated back and forth, all sitting at our optimals in different directions from the fight, jamming merrily out of harm's way. That's the way it should feel

What could have gone better
I die to avoidable situations, which hurts the fleet, taking 20% of our jammers off the field for the 10 minutes it takes me to reship and rejoin, as opposed to the 1.5 minutes it takes to warp off and return. For the fight in F-X against Fatal Ascension, I died early (humorous story below) and listened to the fight from my clone vat. I heard NOTHING being called for jams for a good long time, even though I think I heard Caldak ask for things to be jammed or for jams to be called. Finally people started to speak up. I think I remember hearing Caldak say "that's the best news we could hear" when someone finally called out that SOMETHING was jammed. I don't think all our initial jams failed, so just take it into consideration that we call them for a reason: jams effectively change the enemy fleet composition in discrete 20-second chunks, and the FC probably wants to know this.

I'm not sure what caused this but I will be happy to take responsibility for it: For the F-X fight against Fatal Ascension, myself and at least a few others were setting up to fight on a particular gate (which I think was initially the correct gate). At some point the setup must have shifted to the other gate, as Caldak was talking about where to set up with respect to the bubble. I pan around and see no bubble... More below, but I must have missed the call to switch gates or something. So I apologize to the fleet for messing this one up.

Amusing (to me) stories (aka "learning moments")
After the last roam with the Covryn battle, I made sure to add the alliance column to the overview specifically in case we had flashy friendlies. When I heard HARK would be joining us in the M2- carrier fight, I was like "hell yeah, no jamming friendlies this time!" I carefully sorted by overview by alliance and started targeting... The downside is that the feeling was not mutual, as I got blown out of the sky almost instantly by two of them. Avoidable if I had been aligned and warped when yellow-boxed. I'm pretty sure it was just initial chaos and they probably tried to clean out the Blackbirds before everyone reined themselves in.

F-X fight against Fatal Ascension. ECM was setting up at one gate in the system, and at some point it became clear that the gate had been switched or we had misunderstood originally. Caldak was talking about where he wanted us with respect to the bubble. I pan around and see no bubble, and suddenly understand I'm in the wrong place. OK, don't panic, I have a TAM artist here that can help me get to the other gate without winding up in the bubble. Enemies start pouring through the gate, getting ready to warp to the fight. A few start burning for me while the TAM artist is in warp and I'm desperately waiting for him to land so I can get over there. Finally the call comes up in Agony ECM: www...I right-click and warp to member, giggling as I warp...200 km then start slowing down? Oh god, I just warped into the enemy fleet! Jam the Dramiels (this got me on a killmail as he was popped later), align for planet...clonevat. It turns out someone had nabbed our TAM artist, who was still on grid when I warped to him. I didn't have fleet members on overview or brackets, sO I was clueless. Over TS I reported I had no idea what happened and felt like a retard. I still feel like a retard, but at least I know what happened.

ECM Discussion
I’m extremely happy to see people discussing using ECM to its full potential. I'm sure you guys are getting to know me as the annoying ECM proponent. I prefer to think of it as advancing the cause, drumming up support, and giving the FC the chance to have an integrated, independent ECM squad for Agony roams. I will readily admit my PvP experience consists entirely of Agony roams. I will also say, however, that I'm committed to ECM, having flown nothing else.

We as the Agony student community are really blessed to have them running these classes, because we get an incredible amount of experience and support in all the FCs, scouts, skirmishers, and support that fly with us. Now Caldak, in addition to a lot of other strengths, has one in particular that I think applies specifically to ECM. He has seized on a way to use them very effectively. In broad strokes, he keeps them safe using TAM artists and has them lag the fleet. There is, of course, an opportunity cost here. First off, the people in ECM boats are reducing the fleet's combat effectiveness, lowering DPS by not being in a combat hull, and they're pilots that are NOT in a scouting/skirmishing hull. Furthermore, those pilots burning us TACs are not available to help the fleet for the beginning of most engagements.

Is ECM OP? I personally don't think so. In my opinion, what makes it seem so is being used to its fullest potential. That is, used like it is used by Caldak, kept safe using TACs, and able to work independently from the fleet and coordinate internally. As alumni support I'm still learning how to do some of this effectively, but if you can't tell, I'm fairly passionate about it and will keep challenging myself and learning.

I'd say this: if anyone thinks ECM is OP, I invite them to 1v1 me. I will bring a Griffin, Kitsune, or Blackbird, and you can bring anything of the same ship class. You will not tell me what race you are flying, and we must agree to meet at a spot that is not predetermined, and we will both learn about it one minute before having to be there (we'll be one system apart so it will be feasible to get there).

OK, soloing isn’t necessarily representative. Fair enough, we'll 10v10. Same rules apply though: I don't know what race ships you guys are flying, and I have to move with the fleet (jump with everyone, warp to gates with everyone, basically not being kept sequestered and safe). Lets say you have 10 ships that are not ECM...mixture of dps, skirmishers, tackle, distributed EWAR, whatever. I have SEVEN ships of these types and three ECM boats. I still contend that the ECM boats will get primaried or driven off the field by having to engage without range, turning it into a 10-on-7. That is, I think when you're looking at whether ECM is OP, you also need to look at the opportunity cost of not bringing something else. An ECM boat also means -1 ship's worth of DPS. If you're going to take that DPS hit, and also FORCE your ECM to jump into brawls with the rest of your gang, it's a recipe for non-effective ECM.

Rant over, looking forward to the next chance to fly with Agony and the rest of the students!

[Aethena]

One thing I continually struggle with is targeting opponents in large-scale battles. I always have problems finding the called targets in amongst all the flashing bars. I usually give up after a few seconds and just pick someone close to me, but I feel like I waste valuable time doing even that. Any hints or is it just something that will come with practice?

I still have problems with this occasionally - and partly due to my crappy computer. Remember that holding down your control bar will stop the overview from moving. Never have fleet members on any overview setting, and it's a good idea to also not have biomass and wrecks on your primary pvp overview.

<lots of good stuff>

Ultimately, it's most important that your bullets are being put to use, after all. When all else fails, grab what you can and shoot

Thanks Greygal! I use the Agony setup for my overview, so no Fleet or Blues on it, but I really like the idea of having a totally stripped down version without anything but ships for the big fights. And I'm definitely going to try having ship-specific options as well.

I think the tip I'm most looking forward to trying is using ctrl to freeze your overview. My biggest issues come at the start of the fight – primary is called and I manage to find it (or even just find someone close to me), go to click on them in the overview, people either change distance or new people come on grid, and the person I was just about to click on shifts position in the list ><

Thanks again

And John, you've just about got me convinced to train for a Blackbird next... (after I finish my Stealth Bomber training, ofc)

[AkJon Ferguson]

John: re: Killed by temp blues (R&K) Yeah, I was none too pleased when I got popped either. I'm not sure if they realized the error of their ways at some point but I was able to slow-boat my pod out of the bubble and dock at the NPC station to get into a velator. Of course then I had to scout myself back to Stacmon (even though we were about to take a LONG bio and I was only 1 system behind the fleet,) which didn't do much to brighten my mood. re: Fight against the other FA alliance (of course Ferguson Alliance is the one that doesn't petition wardecs) When Caldak didn't take the fight on that gate I just wanted to scream NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! (His tactical sense is usually spot-on but I think he dropped the ball in this instance.) We had ECM in perfect position, all the fleet had to do was power approach back to the gate (and then orbit caldak at 2500 or whatever) and they'd all be at their optimals. It doesn't get much better than that. re: ECM OP Ummm, if you're the one arguing it's not, then why would you be the one in the ECM boat? And sure, you can win a 1v1 against an ECM boat if you're willing to massively nerf your tank/dps/ewar against every other fleet you're likely to encounter. Looking through my killmails, damn few (5%, if that) had any ECCM fitted because it's not worth gimping tank/gank. "Fair enough, we'll 10v10. Same rules apply though: I don't know what race ships you guys are flying, and I have to move with the fleet (jump with everyone, warp to gates with everyone, basically not being kept sequestered and safe). Lets say you have 10 ships that are not ECM...mixture of dps, skirmishers, tackle, distributed EWAR, whatever. I have SEVEN ships of these types and three ECM boats. I still contend that the ECM boats will get primaried or driven off the field by having to engage without range, turning it into a 10-on-7. That is, I think when you're looking at whether ECM is OP, you also need to look at the opportunity cost of not bringing something else. An ECM boat also means -1 ship's worth of DPS. If you're going to take that DPS hit, and also FORCE your ECM to jump into brawls with the rest of your gang, it's a recipe for non-effective ECM." So let me get this straight, if ECM is used ineptly it's not OP? Thanks for the info! re: Caldak's use of ECM squad I'm grateful to tofu for the TAMs and since many of us are new to ECM I think relying on an Agony member for warp-ins is okay as a temporary measure, but I think it also risks killing self-reliance. I also question whether keeping us behind actually keeps us all that much safer in the long run. Throughout the roam I was tempted to just ask if I could take my chances with the main fleet. The sooner I get on grid, the sooner I can set up. If they're warping in to us, those are vital seconds. If we're warping in to them, I can always cancel warp and warp at range. If we're jumping into them, I can always hold cloak longer or cold-warp off and warp back at range. About the only justification I see for holding us back is not safety, but getting fights, which might override everything else. re: Quiet ECM I think the problem with the 'quiet ecm' fight was more the 'nobody calling primary'. If every ECM pilot (with 5 jammers each) is going to call every jam, comms are going to descend into chaos and students (the new guys) will be confused about what they're supposed to be shooting at. We need to sort out ahead of time who's jamming what (based on racials (preferably each boat focusing on 1 as I suggested before the roam,) alphabetical, and FC input) and then do our best to achieve that. ECM is already OP enough, we're not Elite PVPers and we're never going to achieve perfect distribution, no redundancy, instant perfect communication. If FC needs to know whether particular high-value targets are jammed, great, but me calling 'jam on ridonkulous in the rifter' is not comms bandwidth well spent.