Wolfpacks - Oct - Feedback.
#1
Posted 22 October 2011 - 01:07 AM
Anne Bonney, a notorious pirate in her own right, told her husband, Calico Jack Bonney, as he was captured by pirate hunters,
“if you'd have fought like a man you needn't hang like a dog”.
Done some class's
#2
Posted 22 October 2011 - 02:21 PM
One thing that could perhaps be improved which came up in class as well is in the accompanying wiki material, and make clear whether the wolfpack class is arty trasher exclusive or not. PVP-WOLFPACKS says arty trasher, PVP-WOLFPACKS Preparation Checklist allows all dessies, Recommended Setups for PVP-Wolfpacks has setups for all dessies again.
I'd say adding a notice that currently the wolfpack class requires a arty trasher to those other pages would make things a lot clearer while retaining the more generic info.
Secondly in class when this came up you said you'd take any dessie (or at least that's what I understood), but on the forums Corywyn notes that it's trasher only really. A more unified voice in this would make it all the more clear, although I guess this difference stems from the same reason those wiki pages don't agree.
#3
Posted 22 October 2011 - 03:24 PM
#4
Posted 23 October 2011 - 06:40 AM
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/11350-open-pvp-avanced-hssr-2300-15th-advanced-2100-for-16th-17th-july/]ADVANCED HSSR -1807102100[/link]
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/11588-closed-pvp-wolfpacks-class-august-2829-1800/]WOLFPACKS-201008281800[/link]
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/12728-fullpvp-covops-nov-28-1800-venue-changeread/]COVOPS - 281101800[/link]
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/13477-closed-pvp-skirmish-prototype-class-29th-30th-january-1300/]SKIRMISH-20110129[/link]
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/13315-closed-pvp-flybys-february-12th-1800/]FLYBYS-20110212[/link]
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/16195-closed-stealth-bombers-20111119-2000/]Stealth Bombers 20111119[/link]
#5
Posted 23 October 2011 - 06:53 AM
- Work limited my time to 2 hours, less if fleet setup is included, but the fleet was organised fast.
- Didn't get to fly
- Informative
- I hate work.
- Fast fleet setup again. Big difference from Basic since people know the drill by now.
- Learned about ammo ranges. Was unprepared for first half so I was limited to short range fights.
- I was within 20km of initial engagements, so I got lucky with my ammo
- Got final blow on something or other. Lot's of KM whoring. Wee!
- Sickened by lack of willingness of others to fight. Highly recommend Evefags unsubscribe and go play Tetris in the safety and comfort of their own home.
- Was glad to see fellow RvB'ers out and about. Wish we had more of a chance to brawl. Maybe next time.
- Wish we had more willing targets.
- Learned my sensor booster is pretty much useless for this roam. Tried to swap out, but had fitting issues and limited time to experiment before 2nd half of roam.
- Now have yellow sticky attached to monitor for quick ammo reference and more ammo in my hold.
=========================================================================================================================================================
BASIC-20110902 - WOLFPACKS-20111021
#6
Posted 23 October 2011 - 07:21 AM
Anne Bonney, a notorious pirate in her own right, told her husband, Calico Jack Bonney, as he was captured by pirate hunters,
“if you'd have fought like a man you needn't hang like a dog”.
Done some class's
#7
Posted 23 October 2011 - 08:18 AM
#8
Posted 23 October 2011 - 11:23 AM
Wolfpack -20110917
#9
Posted 23 October 2011 - 12:07 PM
I tried to type out jams in chat, but that's never really going to work I guess.
Is ECM overpowered? Guess so, my loss rate on a Caldak roam is usually 3+, my Blackbird made it home without a scratch.
I declare Syndicate a Care Bear Crying Docking Zone.
That's one Bio worthy quote here.
#10
Posted 23 October 2011 - 01:21 PM
#11
Posted 23 October 2011 - 02:22 PM
Next time if we want some engagements we should avoid naming ships indicating Caldak presence but we have at least one carrier so its good.
WOLFPACKS-20111021
COVOPS-SB-20111119
ADVANCED-20111216
FLYBYS-20120324
I must not fear.
Fear is the mind – killer.
Fear is the little – death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.
#12
Posted 23 October 2011 - 02:46 PM
#13
Posted 23 October 2011 - 06:41 PM
We came all the way down from Vale just to be intercepted by Rooks+Kings in 6E- at the ZVN gate. They shredded our fleet to pieces as Maudite can confirm since he had a front seat to this massacre. Tons of Navy Apocs and they even cynoed in carriers... those guys mean serious business.
It was a pity that we didn't meet (I even had an extra pack of Caldari Navy Piranha Light Missiles for my alumni collegues ).
Grats on the carrier kill!
Next time. We know where you play...
BASIC - 1403091800
WOLFPACKS - 2103091800 | FLYBYS - 20110212
ADVANCED - 0404091800 | ADVANCED HSSR - 0805102300
COVOPS - 1804090001 | SKIRMISH - 20110129 | BOMBERS - 20111119
#14
Posted 23 October 2011 - 09:05 PM
BASIC-20111006 :: WOLFPACKS-20111021 :: DSCAN-20120303 :: FLYBYS-20120324 :: ADVANCED-20120418
#15
Posted 23 October 2011 - 10:33 PM
#16
Posted 24 October 2011 - 04:12 AM
#17
Posted 24 October 2011 - 06:32 AM
I think the Students who stuck at the Roam till later, really got their rewards, a few of real good engagements in which you guys performed well.
The discipline and organisation demonstrated by Students, after only one or two classes was pretty impressive.
The above is so true. For the short amount of time people have to get use to the way we do thing when out and about. Every FC you fly with will want to do things different, use different ways of getting the fleet to gel together like he wants. Basics I let things run and go into a mess, overwhelming odds and dying is a must in a Basic class.
Wolfpacks people should be able to alive longer, warp out and back, less mistakes of going to wrong gates, jump thru when not called and the like.
Also you will be outnumbered, out gunned by others. But should have a cool head and get safe ect after a fight.
Advanced is were I can expect people to know the drill, step up to tasks when asked <- see that Alumni peoples. Concepts should be coming together with less
of the enemy getting away. And know the ship you flying.
On any specialized side course like the up coming Stealth Bomber, Will tell you in class
Anne Bonney, a notorious pirate in her own right, told her husband, Calico Jack Bonney, as he was captured by pirate hunters,
“if you'd have fought like a man you needn't hang like a dog”.
Done some class's
#18
Posted 24 October 2011 - 08:49 AM
#19
Posted 24 October 2011 - 08:57 AM
One thing I continually struggle with is targeting opponents in large-scale battles. I always have problems finding the called targets in amongst all the flashing bars. I usually give up after a few seconds and just pick someone close to me, but I feel like I waste valuable time doing even that. Any hints or is it just something that will come with practice?
Umm what do you have on overview during these battles?
If you have everyone on grid showing and you have all brackets on then its going to go sloooowwww. The UI part of the screen is an overlay and isn't on the same render path as the ships/effects. This means its more CPU-dependent than GPU-dependent and as Eve is a single-thread application that's pretty bad news.
I typically have everyone not in fleet showing with brackets on. If its still slow then brackets get turned off.
Effects and ships are going to be GPU dependent.
HTH - if it doesn't then say
MORAL, adj. Conforming to a local and mutable standard of right. Having the quality of general expediency.
#20
Posted 24 October 2011 - 11:04 AM
What you do for yourself dies with you, what you do for others is immortal.
BASIC | WOLFPACKS | ADVANCED | HSSR | EYES OF THE KILLER | STEALTH BOMBRS | FLYBYS | SKIRMISHING | INTERMEDIATE
The only chance you get is the one you take.
Redemption Road - Free Public Roams and Other Events!
Public Chat: Redemption Road - Mailing List: Redemption Roams
Roc’s Rule #286: A real friend never lets you do anything stupid … alone.
#21
Posted 24 October 2011 - 11:20 AM
One thing I continually struggle with is targeting opponents in large-scale battles. I always have problems finding the called targets in amongst all the flashing bars. I usually give up after a few seconds and just pick someone close to me, but I feel like I waste valuable time doing even that. Any hints or is it just something that will come with practice?
I still have problems with this occasionally - and partly due to my crappy computer. Remember that holding down your control bar will stop the overview from moving. Never have fleet members on any overview setting, and it's a good idea to also not have biomass and wrecks on your primary pvp overview.
Because of overview lag and my crappy computer, I created an overview that shows ONLY non-fleet ships. Nothing else, no wrecks, no planets, no bombs, no brackets, nothing. I don't use it very often, but find it very helpful when I know we are about to go into a battle against a large number of ships. Most of the time, the standard Agony recommended overview settings work fine for me - as most often we're fighting against smaller fleets. But if we're going up against more than about 15, 20 targets, I swap to this overview, that I call my "naked" overview. I also created several other overviews that I find helpful at times: an ECM only one, a Logistics only one, and a Battlecruiser only one. I just quickly load whatever is needed into my 5th overview tab, which I keep kind of open to whatever is needed at the time, while my other four tabs remain dedicated to specific overviews (GTFO, PVP, Naked, Traveling-Looting). When I know that we're going up against large numbers and that, for example, the logistics ships are the primary targets, I'll load that overview setting real fast and see only them, as they die I then swap to my "naked" overview (which is on a tab) or my standard pvp overview (which is also a tab). (Or, unfortunately sometimes, I'm swapping to my "GTFO" celestial/station/gates only tab!) I don't have all the ship types and purposes memorized yet... may never get them memorized... having ship-specific overviews has been tremendously helpful to me, even though they don't get a lot of use.
I actually used my ship-specific overview settings twice in the roam yesterday.
I find it helpful also to swap back and forth from sorting by distance and sorting by name. For example, as I land into the battle, I have my overview sorted by name, to more quickly find the primary, secondary, and tertiary (if one is called). I have gotten into the habit of targeting the secondary first, then the primary - because most of the time the primary is already dead by the time I'm locked. If the primary is still alive I'm putting my guns on him/her, if not (more often than not) my guns are going onto the secondary immediately. Regardless, whichever my guns are actually on, I'm then targeting the tertiary (if one has been called). Once I've got those three loaded, I resort my overview by distance so I can then quickly move to something else if any of those three are not in optimal, or already dead. Occasionally I am out of range on any of the called targets, so I just grab whatever is closest and weakest or shows as already having some damage.
Ultimately, it's most important that your bullets are being put to use, after all. When all else fails, grab what you can and shoot
What you do for yourself dies with you, what you do for others is immortal.
BASIC | WOLFPACKS | ADVANCED | HSSR | EYES OF THE KILLER | STEALTH BOMBRS | FLYBYS | SKIRMISHING | INTERMEDIATE
The only chance you get is the one you take.
Redemption Road - Free Public Roams and Other Events!
Public Chat: Redemption Road - Mailing List: Redemption Roams
Roc’s Rule #286: A real friend never lets you do anything stupid … alone.
#22
Posted 24 October 2011 - 11:27 AM
This has nothing to do with your computer - this is the only way to do it. I only very rarely switch to a overview that shows fleet members, to check my distance to them. I do show brackets for fleet members though, unless it becomes really laggy. The only thing I'm showing besides hostiles are star gates and the sun - those are common align directions and it's good to have them in that list IMHO, so you don't need to search for them when the FC calls for them. Wrecks and Planets and stuff like that have no place in a PVP overview. Bombs and Probes, why not.Because of overview lag and my crappy computer, I created an overview that shows ONLY non-fleet ships. Nothing else, no wrecks, no planets, no bombs, no brackets, nothing.
#23
Posted 24 October 2011 - 06:06 PM
What went well (from my narrow perspective)
ECM squad, primarily thanks to Caldak's use of us (more on this below)
"Agony ECM" channel
The X-M fight against Dark Phoenix Rising. Caldak had ECM set up with plenty of time, and I think we just slowboated back and forth, all sitting at our optimals in different directions from the fight, jamming merrily out of harm's way. That's the way it should feel
What could have gone better
I die to avoidable situations, which hurts the fleet, taking 20% of our jammers off the field for the 10 minutes it takes me to reship and rejoin, as opposed to the 1.5 minutes it takes to warp off and return. For the fight in F-X against Fatal Ascension, I died early (humorous story below) and listened to the fight from my clone vat. I heard NOTHING being called for jams for a good long time, even though I think I heard Caldak ask for things to be jammed or for jams to be called. Finally people started to speak up. I think I remember hearing Caldak say "that's the best news we could hear" when someone finally called out that SOMETHING was jammed. I don't think all our initial jams failed, so just take it into consideration that we call them for a reason: jams effectively change the enemy fleet composition in discrete 20-second chunks, and the FC probably wants to know this.
I'm not sure what caused this but I will be happy to take responsibility for it: For the F-X fight against Fatal Ascension, myself and at least a few others were setting up to fight on a particular gate (which I think was initially the correct gate). At some point the setup must have shifted to the other gate, as Caldak was talking about where to set up with respect to the bubble. I pan around and see no bubble... More below, but I must have missed the call to switch gates or something. So I apologize to the fleet for messing this one up.
Amusing (to me) stories (aka "learning moments")
After the last roam with the Covryn battle, I made sure to add the alliance column to the overview specifically in case we had flashy friendlies. When I heard HARK would be joining us in the M2- carrier fight, I was like "hell yeah, no jamming friendlies this time!" I carefully sorted by overview by alliance and started targeting... The downside is that the feeling was not mutual, as I got blown out of the sky almost instantly by two of them. Avoidable if I had been aligned and warped when yellow-boxed. I'm pretty sure it was just initial chaos and they probably tried to clean out the Blackbirds before everyone reined themselves in.
F-X fight against Fatal Ascension. ECM was setting up at one gate in the system, and at some point it became clear that the gate had been switched or we had misunderstood originally. Caldak was talking about where he wanted us with respect to the bubble. I pan around and see no bubble, and suddenly understand I'm in the wrong place. OK, don't panic, I have a TAM artist here that can help me get to the other gate without winding up in the bubble. Enemies start pouring through the gate, getting ready to warp to the fight. A few start burning for me while the TAM artist is in warp and I'm desperately waiting for him to land so I can get over there. Finally the call comes up in Agony ECM: www...I right-click and warp to member, giggling as I warp...200 km then start slowing down? Oh god, I just warped into the enemy fleet! Jam the Dramiels (this got me on a killmail as he was popped later), align for planet...clonevat. It turns out someone had nabbed our TAM artist, who was still on grid when I warped to him. I didn't have fleet members on overview or brackets, sO I was clueless. Over TS I reported I had no idea what happened and felt like a retard. I still feel like a retard, but at least I know what happened.
ECM Discussion
I’m extremely happy to see people discussing using ECM to its full potential. I'm sure you guys are getting to know me as the annoying ECM proponent. I prefer to think of it as advancing the cause, drumming up support, and giving the FC the chance to have an integrated, independent ECM squad for Agony roams. I will readily admit my PvP experience consists entirely of Agony roams. I will also say, however, that I'm committed to ECM, having flown nothing else.
We as the Agony student community are really blessed to have them running these classes, because we get an incredible amount of experience and support in all the FCs, scouts, skirmishers, and support that fly with us. Now Caldak, in addition to a lot of other strengths, has one in particular that I think applies specifically to ECM. He has seized on a way to use them very effectively. In broad strokes, he keeps them safe using TAM artists and has them lag the fleet. There is, of course, an opportunity cost here. First off, the people in ECM boats are reducing the fleet's combat effectiveness, lowering DPS by not being in a combat hull, and they're pilots that are NOT in a scouting/skirmishing hull. Furthermore, those pilots burning us TACs are not available to help the fleet for the beginning of most engagements.
Is ECM OP? I personally don't think so. In my opinion, what makes it seem so is being used to its fullest potential. That is, used like it is used by Caldak, kept safe using TACs, and able to work independently from the fleet and coordinate internally. As alumni support I'm still learning how to do some of this effectively, but if you can't tell, I'm fairly passionate about it and will keep challenging myself and learning.
I'd say this: if anyone thinks ECM is OP, I invite them to 1v1 me. I will bring a Griffin, Kitsune, or Blackbird, and you can bring anything of the same ship class. You will not tell me what race you are flying, and we must agree to meet at a spot that is not predetermined, and we will both learn about it one minute before having to be there (we'll be one system apart so it will be feasible to get there).
OK, soloing isn’t necessarily representative. Fair enough, we'll 10v10. Same rules apply though: I don't know what race ships you guys are flying, and I have to move with the fleet (jump with everyone, warp to gates with everyone, basically not being kept sequestered and safe). Lets say you have 10 ships that are not ECM...mixture of dps, skirmishers, tackle, distributed EWAR, whatever. I have SEVEN ships of these types and three ECM boats. I still contend that the ECM boats will get primaried or driven off the field by having to engage without range, turning it into a 10-on-7. That is, I think when you're looking at whether ECM is OP, you also need to look at the opportunity cost of not bringing something else. An ECM boat also means -1 ship's worth of DPS. If you're going to take that DPS hit, and also FORCE your ECM to jump into brawls with the rest of your gang, it's a recipe for non-effective ECM.
Rant over, looking forward to the next chance to fly with Agony and the rest of the students!
#24
Posted 24 October 2011 - 06:38 PM
One thing I continually struggle with is targeting opponents in large-scale battles. I always have problems finding the called targets in amongst all the flashing bars. I usually give up after a few seconds and just pick someone close to me, but I feel like I waste valuable time doing even that. Any hints or is it just something that will come with practice?
I still have problems with this occasionally - and partly due to my crappy computer. Remember that holding down your control bar will stop the overview from moving. Never have fleet members on any overview setting, and it's a good idea to also not have biomass and wrecks on your primary pvp overview.
<lots of good stuff>
Ultimately, it's most important that your bullets are being put to use, after all. When all else fails, grab what you can and shoot
Thanks Greygal! I use the Agony setup for my overview, so no Fleet or Blues on it, but I really like the idea of having a totally stripped down version without anything but ships for the big fights. And I'm definitely going to try having ship-specific options as well.
I think the tip I'm most looking forward to trying is using ctrl to freeze your overview. My biggest issues come at the start of the fight – primary is called and I manage to find it (or even just find someone close to me), go to click on them in the overview, people either change distance or new people come on grid, and the person I was just about to click on shifts position in the list ><
Thanks again
And John, you've just about got me convinced to train for a Blackbird next... (after I finish my Stealth Bomber training, ofc)
#25
Posted 24 October 2011 - 07:20 PM
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/11350-open-pvp-avanced-hssr-2300-15th-advanced-2100-for-16th-17th-july/]ADVANCED HSSR -1807102100[/link]
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/11588-closed-pvp-wolfpacks-class-august-2829-1800/]WOLFPACKS-201008281800[/link]
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/12728-fullpvp-covops-nov-28-1800-venue-changeread/]COVOPS - 281101800[/link]
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/13477-closed-pvp-skirmish-prototype-class-29th-30th-january-1300/]SKIRMISH-20110129[/link]
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/13315-closed-pvp-flybys-february-12th-1800/]FLYBYS-20110212[/link]
[link=http://www.agony-unleashed.com/index.php?/topic/16195-closed-stealth-bombers-20111119-2000/]Stealth Bombers 20111119[/link]