23 replies to this topic

[Bamar]

New curriculum is new, tear it apart. Let us know what you think! Constructive criticism is always welcome, but keep things constructive.

[Sanpaku Deska]

Absolutely awesome.

I mentioned in class that, had I been offerred a bet that a cruiser group counldn't do this sort of damage with cruisers, I'd have taken it in a hot second. Absolutely amazing, all the more for the fact that classical tactics actually DO work! Brilliant!

My only concern is I loved the density of the classroom session and I'd hate to see it reduced. It was my impression regarding myself and others in the class, that we all liked the more intense course content.

Outstanding. No real improvements to offer. Don't change the format.

Sanpaku (SAMX)

BASIC - 1403091800
WOLFPACKS-2103091800
ADVANCED-0404091800

[Zhirez]

Loved it. Dense theory. Lots to sponge up, but great delivery and pacing. Perhaps placing *some* base theory on the wiki, and shoring up those articles would help with the education component, but otherwise, I think it is the most valuable course I have taken so far. Basic, Wolfpacks and Advanced make a nice triumvirate for PvP in EvE. Maybe we should think about marketing all three as a 'triple crown' package. - Zhirez

[Cosmo]

As it was said.. a lot of theory. The problem is that i don't know how much of it i managed to pickup. Anyhows, worst case scenario, we got the Agony wiki so that should fill up any holes we have left. Still i loved the ammount of Q&A that was done, sometimes even separate from the course curriculum itself. The roam was amazing as usual, but i was quite surprised that i think two thirds of the class survived, very few dying, and most just leaving early Anyone know where i can throw some three 1.6gb video files? I got the whole roam beggining to end on tape.

[Mograthi]

I loved the theory portion of the class and the density of the information. I am going to have to re-read the course material a few times and attend as alumni to make sure it all sinks in, but a very excellent intro the complexities of target prioritization and target calling. About the only thing I might add in the future to your classes (starting with basic possibly) is to create a general class overview and save it using CCP's new overview export function and make it available as a download off the wiki. You could even have one for basic, one for wolfpacks, and so forth with each one getting more sophisticated as the classes progress.

[NilZad Berkina]

Great Job Agony On reading the class notes on the wiki it was evident that the content here would be much deeper than that of the basic and wolfpack classes. The wiki is well written and informative. Bamar's theory section of the live class reiterated the wiki notes and expanded on them exponentially with explanations, greater definition and real life experiances not to mention his patient and precise delivery which was very well recieved by the class. The practical section of the class as ever a truely fun experiance. Personally speaking some of the most fun ive had in this game. All Agony pilots impress as they have previousely with thier calm atitude, and for want of a better word profesionalism, demonstrateing class topics live and taking our cruiser fleet on a rageing romp through 0.0. Apart from the learning experiance this is a great advert for you and your alliance and I comend you for it. The only minor point I would make would be to try to limit to a lesser level the questions from students or perhaps keep them in fleet chat only to maybe minimise chatter on voice. This may lead to other agony members answering these queries leaving the main instructer free to continue with the topic at hand picking up questions in fleet as he deems suitable to his leasson plan or to make a point more definate. I know this does go on but I would like to see less input on voice from students or only once invited to pose questions by the Instructor. Gratz on a superb class look forward to the next. NB

[Mkah Mvet]

The class was good, though I do have a few suggestions for improvement. First, in the reading material, it would be really nice to have a list of the different ships in the game, especially the recons and HACs, with descriptions of strong versus and weak versus. I saw a Huggin for the first time in space last week and thought "is that seriously the name of a ship in this game?" The class did help identify what kind of threat that specific ship poses to whom, but it would be nice to have something to study. That way when I do have confrontations in smaller gangs, at least there will be some info about the ships tucked away into my brain. I realize a lot of that info can be extrapolated from the ships descriptions and stats, but it would be easy to miss the details without practical experience. In the practical I flew a blaster thorax and I felt completely useless. By the killmails, I dealt almost zero damage, flying a damage dealing ship. If I'd have known that would be the case, I'd have fitted rails, or flown a different ship. I'm definitely going to advise my alliance mates not to use blasters in Agony classes, except maybe wolfpacks. The class really was so theory dense, I wish I'd have taken notes, though all I feel that didn't really stick was which specific ships pose how big a threat and why.

[Vora]

In short: a superb class, and a bloodthirsty fleet. !lol Theory: I really have the feeling that this lecture brought me more than both BASIC and WOLFPACKS combined. It might be a subjective feeling but not only the quantity but also the quality of information was really high. This actually reminded me of my university years, so this lecture really deserved the title "PvP University". The pace was right for me, the many examples and discussions let you really delve into the topics at hand. Keep that curriculum, it's great! Fleet: The roam went deep into Fade with Bamar always in full control of the steamrolling rookie avalanche of 78 ships. It was a hydra fleet alright, just with more inertia and a whole lot more deadliness. This time I did not have the problems of identifying the primary or secondary, partly because Bamar always called out the hull type as well (at some point he even sent out target broadcasts of fighters every second). The climax undoubtedly was the spider tank of 9 carriers outside the MH station in C4C. We threw ourselves a couple of times against it trying to break the spider tank with our BBs, unfortunately to no avail but it was an elevating feeling to see those BSs, BCs and HACs panic-docking whenever the cloud of doom arrived !lol It was also a new experience to be watched permanently ("Manticore @ 300").... we're deemed dangerous now... :amazed: It was an all out epic night for me. I have learned a whole lot that night. Some thoughts: 1. The course material concerning the preparation for fleet is a little thin. Some direct words concerning the upcoming fleet, something along the lines of "BBs are very welcome, Ruptures, Thorax and Arbis are proper hulls, fit for 20 km, but some blasterboats are also appreciated..." you get the idea. After Basic and Wolfpack you are not sure what to expect with cruisers, a hydra fleet or a fleet with highly specialized groups? 2. I had the impression that this fleet had tons of damps but was low on points. I noticed a lot of successful escapes from the battlefield. Maybe there should be a dedicated "point group", 4 - 5 ships equipped with a sensor booster (target resolution) and a point, and with the explicit assignment to point "the others". Maybe pilot #1 for BS, #2 for HAC, the rest for freestyle.... just a spontanious brain fart

[DaDutchDude]

The Advanced class was amazing and I enjoyed it a lot. As requested, I'll give some feedback. Some of the reading material was superb. I really loved the TTAP piece and the especially the Threat Level Velocity Reduction Principle. As simple and obvious as it might appear when you truly "get it", I am sure even many veteran PVPers get this wrong. I think the article might be better with a small process diagram to visualize the thought process, but I think the depth of understanding demonstrated in this piece by the author cannot be understated. The piece about the weaponry is very useful. I'm sure most people stick to training one or two race specific weapon systems but don't understand the others very well, and this leaves a gap when fighting against unknown ships and weapon systems. This article helped fill that gap for me to quite some extent. What I am missing a bit is some overview or perhaps reference material regarding the combination of the above to pieces: 1) Which ships pose what type of threat and what are their vulnerabilities? I know there are some public sources of information such as EVE Wiki (http://www.eve-wiki....php?title=Ships), and perhaps a link to those would be enough. Eventually, we should be familiar with the thread of the top of our heads, but I still have a hard time remembering all those many names. 2) What damage should be done to which ship type? And how valuable is it to switch ammo specifically for which ship type? I know the answer will most likely be an "it depends", but giving some general guidelines and considerations without being too specific would be helpful. Preparing for the class, I was a bit in a quandary about what ship to bring and how to fit it, and I decided on bringing some artie ruptures. Based on some comments by weeks, I actually switched to an AC rupture, but in the end, I think both would have been fine. Perhaps it's in my nature to be to concerned with these things and wanting to bring the perfect ship, but perhaps a bit more guidance would be welcome. The theory part was great. I loved the free form nature of the Q & A, with not only Bamar but also many other Agony members adding valuable tidbits of information. And I didn't mind the "Well, that depends" answers at all (even though sometimes you seemed embarrassed by it), since they were always followed by the guidelines and considerations. Actually, I think you should emphasize it, since excellent PVPers will be able to make those crucial choices based on information available at that time and act accordingly instead of sticking to one thing and hoping it works out regardless of changing environments. The roam was awesome and again I could start routine starting to kick in a bit more then with wolfpacks, and I started to be able to filter more information along the way. However, I still feel my mind starts melting with so many ships on the field, modules not activating, ships not getting locked, etc, and it keeps surprising me how calm, cool and collected you seemed under pressure, giving clear orders and repeating important information ("stay out of the bubble and be ready to warp out"). It helped me stay calm and focused on the job at hand, while also freeing up some CPU time in my brain to start thinking for myself and sort out my priorities. When I look back at the basic, wolfpack and advanced class, I'm amazed at how complete and well rounded it is, but at the same time, I think it is perhaps a bit too much for 3 sessions. Each session seems just a bit too long and too filled up with information. Maybe it's just me, but at the end of each roam, I'm wired but also dead tired (which might have something to do with ending 4am in the morning though ). I feel the load would be distributed a bit better over 4 sessions. Perhaps one of them could be just a theory session perhaps current sessions could be distributed over 2 days, etc, but I feel that somehow it would benefit the retention value of the information. Thanks for the great classes and I hope this feedback is valuable to you.

[Bamar]

Thanks for the feedback so far everyone. One point is that we do know everything is a bit of an information overload, which is why we allow alumni to fly again for free. It usually takes a few times for everything to sink in, so keep an eye out for the next one and get a refresher. Also, now that I've got v2.0 of the curriculum I'm going to start working on updating the wiki information and putting more stuff up there, so keep an eye out for that as well.

[Sanfrey]

Hurry up and run one in some region I can play in too. Sounds awesome and from the intel channel chatter, you were kicking butt. Mkah: Blasters are, in my experience, most useful in small gangs, especially against large solo targets. As soon as you get into a dogfight scenario with more than a handful of ships, targets go down too fast for you to get on them. But if you're roaming in a thorax with a couple of friends (say an interceptor and a blackbird) and catching people solo, you'll be able to get right on them and you'll like those blasters. TL:DR It's not just an Agony fleet, it's any large fleet that renders blasters useless.

[Carenthor Loon]

from the intel channel chatter

IRON has an intel channel? :-p

Someone should tell azaquiare, Secluse had him tackled in a belt for like 20 minutes whilst we engaged someone else.

It's always good to hear from you Sanfrey, just stop telling everyone I occasionally fly the odd covops... :-P

Oh, and could you arrange a DD next time? Our students are disappointed these days if they don't see a Titan during the class!

[Vampire Hitman]

(Fleet of mid-sized ships) + (Multiple, large, expensive ships exploding) = Exceptional class. Enough said.

[Paskis]

IRON has an intel channel? :-p

Someone should tell azaquiare, Secluse had him tackled in a belt for like 20 minutes whilst we engaged someone else.

"Help me help me I got my ratting bs tackled coz I'm too n00b to watch local / I was AFK" yeah I want to be the one that broadcasts that to 400 blues.

It's always good to hear from you Sanfrey, just stop telling everyone I occasionally fly the odd covops... :-P

To be fair, I did describe you as 'extremely good'..

Oh, and could you arrange a DD next time? Our students are disappointed these days if they don't see a Titan during the class!

I'm not 100% positive but I think our Titan's for sale in Jita. I sure haven't seen it in a while.

[b1zz]

Some feedback:

+
Calling targets seemed on the improve. Very clear calling and repeating of targets was good. I liked that there was more target broadcasting also, and I also appreciated the 'good job' comments after combat. I especially liked the drunk dude popping into vent to give an inebriated howdy to our FC, nice bit of colour to finish things off lol.

-
Lack of drone orders. I imagine drones used in concentration could be a very effective shock weapon when used correctly. Drones must have made up about 30% of the fleets damage output, the equivalent of about 15 4000m/s ships. They could have at least been deployed just outside each ship ready to be ordered onto primaries or other ships in concentration when the FC deemed retreat was not imminent.

Missing sections from the literature. I'm still curious what's in them. I understand this is being fixed?

We appeared to easily outclass every opponent we came across to the point that they all went to ground. Perhaps we could have split the class up for some more kills. I realise we were short on cover, but at least near the end I wouldn't have objected to more risks being taken - here I took all that time to prepare multiple ships for the class but didn't lose even one.

Anyway, good roam and good job agony.

::::

1) Which ships pose what type of threat and what are their vulnerabilities? I know there are some public sources of information such as EVE Wiki (http://www.eve-wiki....php?title=Ships), and perhaps a link to those would be enough. Eventually, we should be familiar with the thread of the top of our heads, but I still have a hard time remembering all those many names.

Sanfrey did a nice summary of all the ships. Can be found here. Just print it out and refer to it if needed, even add your own notes as your eve journey progresses. Combine with the general knowledge of racial ship types ie ammar armour tank and fire EM/THERM damage dealing, cap intensive ships etc. You're not going to know each ship intimately until you've flown it really.

::::

Some pics from the roam:
21.50
00.23
00.59 Is that 9 carriers I see before mine eyes?
02.03
02.33

[zippp]

Im sorry but i had rl stuff during the course so i could not join it... can i take the course on later date with the same price what have been charged from the corp account. Regards Zippp Decrum INC [DECO]

[Crazy Kalibanov]

Overall I thought the course was very good. I have a couple of suggestions. It would be useful to have some reference material on your wiki about different types of fleets, for example sniper fitted HACs, spider tanking BSs, etc. As someone new to pvp, I haven't encountered many different fleets. This means I don't know what they are let alone their strengths and weaknesses; and, therefore I don't know what are threats to my fleet. It would be really useful to have a table summarizing some of these fleet types, strengths and weaknesses, and some notes on what types of fleets they should avoid. There was some very good discussion about strengths and weaknesses of specific ships, ships that aren't useful in pvp, ships that play specific roles in specific types of fleets, and ships that are particularly dangerous to other types of ships. Agin, it would be useful to see that presented in the wiki. There was some useful discussion on the forums about how to fit cruisers for the class, e.g., fit for 20+ km, armor buffer tank, types of drones to bring, etc. It would be useful to put some of that in the wiki.

[Pascal Almaric]

Thank you for another fine class and roam. I had a great time, and learned loads -- both facts (which you can read anywhere) and more to the point wisdom.

Feedback...

- As a range tanking blackbird pilot who has been warped zero without warning by more than one FC, it was really nice to fly for an FC who only did it when it was going to be OK and set up a separate warp in when it wasn't.

- The class introductory material needs more information on what ships to bring and how to fit them. This stuff involves shopping and hauling, which needs to be done in advance. It's obviously going to be harder to put this stuff on a wiki than it was for basic, because cruiser pilots may need to change ships when frigate pilots would change fittings. But do what you can.

- I think this class needs a little more information on bubbles from a FC's perspective -- what they do to you, how they will be used against you tactically, and how to avoid/reverse it. There may be an Agony dictors/bubble class (which likely requires being able to fly a dictor), but ISTM dictor pilots aren't the only people who need to know about bubbles.

- This might be more appropriate to basic, but... The preparatory material could do with a link to Ombey's maps and a list of regions to print out. Also, if you can find/create one, some sort of ship recognition chart so I'll know what the Minmatar carrier is called when the FC says "jam the carriers".

Not much more to say. Thanks again for a great class. I want more of this...

[Pascal Almaric]

[quote name='Mkah Mvet]I'm definitely going to advise my alliance mates not to use blasters in Agony classes' date=' except maybe wolfpacks.[/quote']

Note: I flew a blaster dessie for the start of wolfpacks and often did zero damage too until I switched. Just go for rails.

[Mkah Mvet]

Will it be announced when the reading materials get updated?

[Bergon Darek]

- This might be more appropriate to basic, but... The preparatory material could do with a link to Ombey's maps and a list of regions to print out.

I can think of an excellent reason not to do this: it's free intel for potential targets. This could let them plan for gate camps, traps, etc. I can think of at least one way to set up a trap that would take out pretty much an entire Basic or Wolfpacks class. And if I can think of one, there are probably twenty.

Anyway, the roam after class pretty much always goes through more or less the same regions, I think.

[Bamar]

- This might be more appropriate to basic, but... The preparatory material could do with a link to Ombey's maps and a list of regions to print out.

I can think of an excellent reason not to do this: it's free intel for potential targets. This could let them plan for gate camps, traps, etc. I can think of at least one way to set up a trap that would take out pretty much an entire Basic or Wolfpacks class. And if I can think of one, there are probably twenty.

Anyway, the roam after class pretty much always goes through more or less the same regions, I think.

Yeah, wouldn't be hard to give a list.

Pure Blind
Fade
Deklein
Venal
Branch
Tribute

Should cover 95% of classes.

[Yuto Kang]

Sorry about the late post. This was by fare, the best class ever. The encounter with the carriers was totally assume in respect to the fact that we were able to take them on and do some damage without losing too many ship. Without a doubt, we inflicted more DM than they did. (Even with them using smart bombs.) It was a great class also, in the fact that it gave everyone the info needed to look at the battle field and determine the threat assessment accurately. Everyone that is involved in fleet ops needs to know what to kill first, without having to be told. While your primary DPS dealers may focus on the primary target, you, as a pilot should know what you need to kill in order to protect your fleet. It's kinda like a Falcon pilot knowing what ships to jam. Depending on your role, the ship and mods your flying, you may need to focus on a different primary. This class will teach you how to determine that. Great class guys, and an even better practical. Look forward to what you come up with next.

[Jin Darius]

Sounds like this class was a treat, just like the PVP Advanced I took that fought the Goonswarm fleet! The talk of the updated curriculum had me interested in checking to see the new materials - unfortunately it seems my old PVP Advanced class didn't get their permissions updated?