49 replies to this topic

[vlonk]

I must say, that my expectations where pretty high when I came to this class and I was hearing obscenely good things from everywhere about AGONY. Now I know why! Thas was really a great class, I had a lot of fun and could not expect more I've been playing games for quite some time in my life now but I did not meet many helpful professionals like you and definetely noone was so adamant in inviting back the poor ISP victim, which is me. Halfway through the first two hours I felt pretty bad about getting kicked and rejoining all the time. I guess my connection cannot handle the huge mass of data, it got much better later on. Many many thanks to the person giving me all the invites and moving me in Vent, I love you man! !lol I also want to congratulate the eyes and ears in the covops and the nimble tacklers. As far as I understand the 50+ frigate fleet, we are a big flashing warning sign to leave the system asap. Yet we got plenty of victims and got not jumped ourselves. I think that's an impressive feat in and of itself considering that we blew up a carrier and did not get a retalation attack of some sort. I did 370 dmg in a flying nutshell to a carrier and he did not survive it. I guess I will be telling that tale for a while ^^ That was real premium lag we had together. I wondered about the pop-quiz questions... where they ment as a good laugh for the teacher or as a good chance to learn to comprehend 10 simultaneous voices talking on vent? I realized that weeks really understood what some people said, while I only could hear some weird cacophony of voices. Props on that, you are truely a herder of cats ,-) I think what would be nice addition to have in the wiki is a link-collection for all the information whores like me who want to be prepared. There are so many good articles out there, but some of them are not that easy to find. And since several of those are WRITTEN by AGONY members (Baka Lakadaka's Covops Theory on the eve-tribune comes to my mind) you can present those to the basic-masses. But that would be a excemption from the "you have to read all of that" list. Maybe it's better to do it as a link collection sticky in the basic forum so everyone can add to it. Also some of them might be outdated and contradictory. Would be helpful nonetheless Only real sad thing I realized last evening is, that my nicely tuned eve-client on my shiny new computer is still sitting in an old crappy house with a shaky network systen. Anyone has a good link to information how to make that client more stable and resilient to connection issues? I plan to stay in this universe for a while!

[Weeks]

Good points on all the constructive feedback, guys. The wiki articles are areas that we have identified as needing some work, we just haven't had the volutneers or the time to work on it yet. Rest assured that it's being addressed. As far as changing the curriculum, we feel like BASIC is pretty tight right now, but I will give some thought to any suggestions I come across. As far as splitting a class into teams and doing some opfor practice, this tends to take up more time than it is worth. Like some of you noticed, the pace of material is nearly-breakneck. It's as fast as I can possibly make it without completely leaving people behind, because we have SO much to cover. As far as the pop quizzes go, I agree that we need a better way to do it. I'm thinking that answers will probably need to go in Fleet from now on, and we'll just take the first correct answer there. That sound like a good compromise?

[Kieler]

Nah, I kinda liked the mass response to questions coming across vent, made me really feel like I was part of the hive mind. I am 7 of 9, you will be assimilated, resistance is futile Seriously though, answers in fleet sounds like the best compromise to me too.

[Atlas Elestra]

I think it was the Epic size of the class that distorted the Pop Quizes. Cut your massive numbers in half and they work better. Although hving everyone type it in fleet could be a good solution for the Supersized class.

[Kazella]

This class was absolutely awesome!!!

The lecture portion of the class was perfect - Weeks told us to pay attention and you have to pay attention. I let my mind wander and started checking my orders, and quickly found myself playing catch up.

I suppose I'll echo the comments about the quizzes - some answers to questions were downright hard on the ears - LOL! But the topper was when Weeks announced the quiz winner - Silver Wyrm - and He says "I did??? I didn't answer that many questions!?!?!" I called shennaigans at that point .

Anyway, Weeks, you did an awesome job in the lecture - I learned tons and it was worth every ISK of the fee.

Then came the practical portion of the class.

I have to admit, I was fearing this portion. The few battles I have been in I have been a sweaty, nervous, heart pounding, hands shaking, adrenalin lock-up mess. But Weeks taught us - "This is what you do, be quiet and do it when your Commander tells you to do it."

Moving the fleet into 0.0 kinda sucked - the lag was horrible - but no fault of you guys.

Then came time for our first engament. Bamar was just calmly giving orders, and I found myself doing exactly what I was taught - I scanned down the Apoc and then shouted "BOMB - BOMB - BOMB - On the Apoc!" on Vent. Bamar took over from there.

Apoc pops - engament is over. I'm not sweating, not nervous, my heart is fine (wife is happy), hands are cold (but not shaking), and the adrenalin is fine - HEY THIS IS FUN!!! From that point on I just focused on Bamar's calm voice and did what he said - and it was REALLY FUN!! Lost a ship, came close to getting podded, BUT I HAD FUN!!!

One thing I will echo though is the problem with screen management. I followed your overview setup instructions to the letter and it was probably taking up 1/4 of my screen. On top of all the other windows I had open, by the time we took on the carrier - I honestly never saw the carrier! LOL Too many windows open. So yeah, some little explanation on what is important, what can be minimized, and what is crap would be cool.

TO THE REST OF THE AGONY CREW THAT HELPED

YOU GUYS HAVE GIANT BALLS OF STEEL!!! !lol

Once I figured out what Bamar was doing ("So-and-so - get our newbs some fresh meat...) and then I would hear you say "point" (and knowing you were now in harms way) and I am saying "where are we?!?!" it would always seem that Bamar would warp us to God-knows-where and start calling targets.

How you guys can put that much faith in "the newb blob" to rescue you is beyond me at this moment...

BUT I'M SURE I'LL FIND OUT IN FUTURE CLASSES

[Bergon Darek]

... this has to be one of the most successful pvp basic gangs yet ...

Heh. What's the final total? I haven't tried to go through the killboard and add it up, but towards the end of the roam I remember someone mentioning around 4.5 billion ISK. That's gotta be some kind of record. And the fool in the carrier

The roam was great. I'm glad that space opened up on Vent for me; I was prepared to stay behind in Saranen, but I've had to drop out of the last couple of roams at the last second due to RL concerns. (Watch out for wife aggro.) The lag was worse than I've personally seen it previously, and I think it cost us several kills, but targets were popping up at a pretty good pace anyway.

Listening to the carrier kill was a blast. I was in my pod at that point, and had already left the field of battle preparatory to a fast pod jump back to Nonni (*pop*), but I sure wish now I'd stuck around to watch. BTW, I think all his friends bolted and left him to die because in the process of trying to take down the fleet, he podded one of his own people.

[Olivor]

It was a really great fun guys I must say! I can only really add to points already mentioned; Overview isn't easy to get right in a short space of time, especially with two separate articles. Lag was rather annoying, Ewar never really got "tried" before 0.0, mass answering just made me shut up err... guess that's about it Some of the sections seemed pretty basic to me, but then again I'm not "new" to eve, and the class is called basic! Once in 0.0 everything went pretty swimmingly... Of paricular "yay" for me: - During one of the earlier encounters realised I was being shot at + webbed + scrammed, found the guy, picked out the right jammer, bam, escape - Did do a fair share of loot whoring, even had a salvager fitted as I had 1 grid spare in the highs, although it is now quite apparent this is stupidly hard to do in 0.0, still, even with a ship loss (and the loot in that ship), came out with a profit - When I lost my ship at one point I still got fleet warped into the carrier battle as I didn't get out fast enough, just thought, fuck it and manually got to the gate through the bubble, so, i still got to see the carrier blow up, and got back to Nonni faster! Here's just some follow up questions and thoughts that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet: - I'm not sure if you follow a similar route every class but as you can seemingly pass through low-sec very easily maybe it could be an idea to tell students to stockpile some ships at Saranen or Torrinos if they've got the cash to do this, trekking back to Nonni did seem a fair way, although I can also see why you don't do this. - During some of the fights I think I only heard someone say "I'm being hit" once but many times I heard people say they were warping out of the fight, which seemed equally pointless. Also, if you were managing to follow the Ewar calls of jams / points / scram then respect because that seemed stupidly hectic. - Surely Minmatar jammers can't be as useless as it was made out? Comparing Matari / Caldari BS's you get a sensor strength spread of 18-21 against 22-24 so having a few in the fleet must be useful... - Maybe it's possible to mention in the Hydra fleet fitting page that drones are basically a waste of space due to the speed and unpredictability we would warp in and out of encounters However nothing here is really major, would loved to have done things in some more depth, which is why I will definitely attending some more classes! Thanks to Weeks, Bamar and all the scouts and such. Always seemed to be able to drop us right on top of things! Makes me even more keen to join Agony, although I really think I need to learn a fair bit more before I'd be useful.

[Fisty Cent]

Great course AU! I'll add my thoughts to the thread The only points that I started getting confused was the first jumps into 0.0. I thought of a couple things that may help students keep track of what's going on: - Add to required reading a link to the 2D map of the area to be roamed. I believe having a 2D map available would have helped people track of where the recon was reporting in from and being dispatched too. I didn't expect to know exactly what's going on (it was pretty intense), but I was definitely trying to follow the comms to learn up. I believe a map would have aided the learning. - Remind people, or for the first couple systems, jump the fleet to a mid safe and get everybody to set up some book marks. Between the lag and all the good fun with warp bubbles, the fleet got split up a bit. If the FC goes down, warping to FC may not be an option in the middle of combat. And if a student wishes to bug out, having a mid safe ready makes it easier. Now if I was more on the ball I would have done this mid safe work anyway (cause it was well covered in low sec), but I am weak. A reminder on entering 0.0 would have enforced getting into that habit. --- Borrowing from a previous poster (and I don't even know if it's possible): - Some inter-fleet EW would great to get used to the effects and and control of EW. I don't know what being painted looks like, and I'm not sure if I'd even see it with all the graphics detail turned down. - And the ultimate test of the spiral exercise would be approaching a battleship that's shooting at you! But that's definitely a stretch. Thanks again guys. Great course.

[Mortis]

AWESOME!!!! That says it all. From the very well paced and presented theory section(major props to weeks), to the unbelievable roam the entire thing was top notch. And i a special note, for anyone thinking they want to be an FC, take this class and see how the pros do it. Barmar put on a virtual clinic on how to fc a fleet and did it with 70+ noobs to pvp. The agony guys just reek or professionalism from the FC, down to the scouts and tacklers. And I whole-heartedly agree with an earlier poster that CCP should sponsor you guys. I will definitely be telling my corp mates to attend and will personally sign up for every class you offer.

[Sanpaku Deska]

I'm hoping you guys meant what you said about constructive criticism. Just in case you didn't it's pretty clear you *know* you're very good at this, and I'm well pleased with the time and money spent -- and plan to continue the course. Next, have to say Weeks did a superb job. I've instructed in Ocean SAR and practiced in Mountain SAR too, both teaching students and later teaching instructors, so I have some of the teaching process, especially as it works with motivated students -- and I have to say Weeks did a superb job. I enjoyed him as an instructor and would have enjoyed him as a student too (if you've instructed some, you'll know this is about as high as compliments get). I have nothing to recommend for an improvement for Weeks -- great job all around. As to class setup, there are a couple areas I'd touch on. First is Vent. Clearly, you were running close to the Vent server limit for your license throughout the class. I've worked with your Provider myself and they're very professional -- however, they don't usually ramp up servers to handle max configuration well (and I don't blame em -- why spend for a server to handle 100 connections when you're maxed at 75 and usually operatate at 30?). So, throughout the class, there was an ongoing lack of connection slots, and probably some slowdown as you were pushing the server limit. So - -suggestion -- less people or bigger license. And personally I'd cap the course at 40 or 50. It's *hard* to do voice commo with that many people and, while everyone did a really excellent job, what can you do? 70 or 75 folks leads to crosstalk. TheDutchDude hit it right on with his comments about Overview/Brackets. The original posting derrived from CCP was dated and no longer 100% applicable. And as the UI in EVE is so idiomatic, theory is difficult and specifics are very useful. Needs an update. I'll be glad to edit it if you write it -- I don't think I know enough to write it myself or I would. Let me know if I can help. Unlike Dutch, I liked the pop quizes. I don't know how well they tested my own knowledge so others could tell, but it got me thinking and that was great. What I ran into with the Roam was a little different, and perhaps the difference is philosophical. In cobmat ops. SAR ops, training ops, whatever, my training and practice is to thoroughly brief my team -- and I'd prefer to err on the side of too much rather than too little. This includes at least ingress, intel estimates on who I'll be engaging, mission time and possible profiles (if I don't know I cover likely or possible engagements), E&E, resupply and LOC's -- and more. For our roam, I didn't know who we were engaging or why, OPFORS estimates -- much of anything. With the new overview, I knew even less, as it took time to acclimate. And I didn't really need to know I suppose, as clearly the AGONY crew seemed to have this handled for me. But I feel I would have learned a ton more with a little more of a briefing. While I realize that the students are not well-integrated into AGONY ops, and assigning more responsibility might have caused problems, I would have enjoyed more awareness, if not invovlement. Overall experience was excellent. Thanks again for a superb class -- I'll be back.

[Atlas Elestra]

The mission Goals for EVERY Class OP are the following, find and destroy any and all targets of opportunity that the fleet can handle. It's basically the daily life of an Agony piolet. There is no rhyme or reason other than, yeah we can take him. Or nahh that's too tough let's avoid that. Plus since Bamar was your FC it's more than likely he'll attack especially with such an abnormally large T1 frigate fleet. A lot of the FC decisions are happening so fast in his head there is often no time to explain to the fleet what is going on. Sometimes a trap will be planned out and the FC will relate that to the fleet, but more often he's reacting to the results of the Skirmishers and scouts.

[Paul Clavet]

I had a great time. I'll echo what others have said about the overview... I thought I had everything set up correctly, but then when we engaged our first target I couldn't see the ships that were called primary. When the import/export overview settings function starts working, I highly recommend distributing a universal overview setup for the class. I got popped twice, though both times I escaped with my pod. There seemed to be lots of confusion from pilots who had been popped/podded about what to do next. At times the coordination of them was handled by weeks, but at other times it wasn't. Maybe it's worth considering having an AGONY pilot on casualty collecting duty, and moving casualties to another channel in vent so they can get clear orders? Weeks: You have a gift for instruction. You were very clear, had a good pace, and were very good about answering questions. Bamar: I suppose that I've never had a competent FC before, because your leadership was greatly reassuring. You kept your head and gave clear, rational orders even when there appeared to be chaos. It was great. Thank you all so much! I'll be back for other classes!

[Bamar]

A lot of the FC decisions are happening so fast in his head there is often no time to explain to the fleet what is going on. Sometimes a trap will be planned out and the FC will relate that to the fleet, but more often he's reacting to the results of the Skirmishers and scouts.

This pretty much. Most of the time you need to react quickly and quite simply there's no time to tell everyone else exactly what's going on. Also, as you become more experienced you start to read between the lines more and more, and keeping track of everything in your head, so being filled in is less and less needed.

Also, more advanced classes focus more on decision making and the thinking behind things. It's just a bit beyond the scope of Basic.

[SilverWyrm]

First of all let me start with saying that I had an absolute blast. The theory part of the class was very well done and seemed to move quite smoothly. I saw many ideas there that had never even occurred to me and I was quite pleased to put these into good use during our roam. While I appreciate the effort that was put into allowing the EPIC size of this class I think that the class size limits that are in place probably should have been adhered to. Any time a question was asked of the class all I could hear was a low roar coming from my headset. I have seen in other posts where some of the class materials are going through a revamp, this I believe is an excellent idea seeing as how weeks spent a not inconsiderable amount of time explaining the changes in the course materials (i.e. overview and performance settings). The roam was probably the most fun I have had in game since I started playing. I see much more of this in my future. Excellent Job Agony. With a special thanks to Weeks and Bamar.

[Paskis]

About my 20th PvP-BASIC at a guess and one of the best.

Weeks! You're a natural! Lively, interesting, pacey and you know the content. You have a clear voice, good microphone, no background noise and you explain things well but concisely, so 10 out of 10.

Agony's getting better at managing larger classes (I remember when 30 was the cut off and 50 including alumni was a 'huge' class.) Unfortunately CCP's taken steps backwards but I know they'll fix it.

My ongoing 'complaint' with Agony roaming is target calling. I would like to take a poll after some engagement and ask how many people didn't shoot the target because they couldn't find it. This is a combination between trying to find the enemy on a busy overview, and trying to understand the name that's called. There was a name like "Chalak" this time, and I basically had to read the whole list of 30 IRON/Council/TRI names to figure out which one sounded remotely like what was being called.

This is a big part of combat (getting all your damage on the right target quickly). Personally I do setup the overview to not show fleet and blues, and I select overviews for ship types (frig/cruiser/BC&BS/Caps) so target calling such as "Primary is chalak see haitch in omen" is what I'm used to from an FC. (Target priority/name/first two letters of name/ship type).

Maybe it's not basic enough for basic. Personally I think the wolfpacks class could use more content how about working it in there.

Anyway it was supposed to be a positive post and I've spent most of it critisizing so I'll just reiterate - one of the best Basic classes yet!

[Ro Jo]

Good points on all the constructive feedback, guys.

The wiki articles are areas that we have identified as needing some work, we just haven't had the volutneers or the time to work on it yet. Rest assured that it's being addressed. As far as changing the curriculum, we feel like BASIC is pretty tight right now, but I will give some thought to any suggestions I come across. As far as splitting a class into teams and doing some opfor practice, this tends to take up more time than it is worth. Like some of you noticed, the pace of material is nearly-breakneck. It's as fast as I can possibly make it without completely leaving people behind, because we have SO much to cover.

As far as the pop quizzes go, I agree that we need a better way to do it. I'm thinking that answers will probably need to go in Fleet from now on, and we'll just take the first correct answer there. That sound like a good compromise?

Perfect compromise to me.

[Sanpaku Deska]

Regarding the briefing on the Roam part -- it's cool and I'm not really in a position to completely evaluate this anyway -- my first time in this class for one. That said, the time for briefing is of course before the combat occurs, so I obviously wasn't clear. That'd have to happen before you undock for it to work. Is there time in a class to do that? Heck, I dunno.... As to pop quizes -- depends on your goal. If the instructor is actually testing knowledge perhaps a new format is more effective. However, for me, I got a LOT out of simply listening to my own and others' answers -- more than I would have gotten from an actual quiz. As a thinking tool, I think the pop quizes weren't bad at all. All depends onthe goal. Good job again -- look forward to the next segment,.

[DaDutchDude]

I have to add this after reading some of the other feedback in the thread: we are an eager bunch of students. I think if you look at the time we had and how busy it was, and how much we want more more more, it simply isn't realistic to fit all that in the BASIC class.

So I hope you Agony guys take it that way: you make learning fun, making us want moar! (instead of 'it wasn't good enough'). And if that isn't a compliment, I don't know what is ...

[Ash]

That said, the time for briefing is of course before the combat occurs, so I obviously wasn't clear. That'd have to happen before you undock for it to work. Is there time in a class to do that?

Usually a PVP Basic Roam is a fluid situation that is read real time as the FC gets intel from the skirmishers, covops, intel sources, etc. So the briefing would go something like "We are about to undock. We may engage multiple targets, or single targets. We may move quicly or move slowly. We may not move at all... We may encounter battleships, or cruisers, or other small frigate gangs. We may get lucky and find a carrier, or we may not find anything at all." ... etc

Most alliance ops do have a clear goal with set opponents, and that's when those kind of briefings will be helpful, but in a PVP-Basic roam, the situation on the field is simply too chaotic to be able to prepare an accurate briefing beforehand.

[Pascal Almaric]

I found the class useful and enjoyable, even revelatory. The syllabus and depth of the theoretical section seems spot on. Both the written materials and Weeks' explanations in Vent were clear and concise. It's all very efficient and professional. The practical section was great. I never realised PvP could be fun like that, usually I'm sat on a gate in an empire war watching our intys try to tackle their intys. It's rearranged my ideas about what I want to do in Eve (if I weren't 75% done on the mission running skill plan, I'd abandon it). And by about half way, when I'd calmed down enough to think, I started learning things like how to look at the space around you and decide where to fly. I especially appreciated the scouts and skirmishers being on the same channel as everybody else, so that we could hear how the gang was working as a whole and how it all came together. I do have a couple of suggestions for things Agony might like to think about... 1. Overviews are so vital in PvP, and having people use overviews that show the things the FC is talking about can be very important. Now that it's possible to export and import them, you might consider providing class overviews for download. I think the class could also have used a little more material about choosing the right overview for the circumstances, and when/why you switch. 2. I got popped a couple of times not warping out fast enough when targeted, and it took about half an hour to get back to the fight. I don't mind the getting popped, but the half hour turnaround means you only get to "learn by failing" twice an hour. If there was some way to practice the "things that get you killed" in a simulated environment with a five minute turnaround, it'd be handy. But I've a feeling you'd need to be in empire and have everybody in the same corp for that.

[Atlas Elestra]

Basically what Ash said, the Pre-flight Briefing for a Basic Roam goes like this: We're gonna go kill what we find. Listen up, listen good, follow orders, and observe Battle Comms. Occasionaly a Scout might have found a target close enough and then prep for that engagement can be given out...

[Afterglow]

Just wanted to say, that for a new player to Eve who is itching to get into PvP, the feedback and response that I've read about these classes have whipped me into a frenzy. Absolutely cannot wait till the next Basic class, all these comments have inspired me to really learn the ropes with Agony if I get the opportunity! Halfway saved up too for the course fee.

[D'Fenixus]

Just wanted to say, that for a new player to Eve who is itching to get into PvP, the feedback and response that I've read about these classes have whipped me into a frenzy. Absolutely cannot wait till the next Basic class, all these comments have inspired me to really learn the ropes with Agony if I get the opportunity! Halfway saved up too for the course fee.

I would like to pay course fee for you, if thats ok. Use saved isk for ships and modules needed for class. If you decide to accept my offer just put note in your enrolment post that fee will be paid by D'Fenixus and send me PM.

[Paskis]

I'm half way to saving up for a new carrier. *Looks at D'Fen expectantly*

[Arkole Blake]

I'm half way to saving up for a new carrier. *Looks at D'Fen expectantly*

Great, once you get it, feel free to park it off the torrinos gate in ecp-8r during the next Agony basic class