18 replies to this topic

[Spinward]

Hey guys and girls, Thanks for coming out last night; we had a great gang and some great kills. This thread is a place to provide feedback on the theory, practical and 0.0 portions of the course. Thanks to Dime (Instructor), Yabu (Admin), Braeden (XO), Skirmishers (Caldak, Braeden, Bamar) and Scouts (Mish, Gant). I know I've missed someone but everyone did a good job.

[Waxen]

I thought the class was well taught and well led. It was unfortunate that I was unable to stay around for the roam last night but I plan to attend roams in the future as an alumnus. Personally, the most exciting part for me was listening to the Agony pilots operating fluidly as a team as they scouted out potential targets and gave recon information. I truly am excited to PvP with Agony in the future. -Waxen

[Skrewed]

Waxen you missed a great roam, at least the part that I remember before passing out asleep.

[Silas]

I agree with Waxen. Well planned, well executed, professional. Even though I've been playing for a while some of the subjects taught were useful for me as well I'm especially referring to the part about spiraling and angular velocities witch I found very informative and I'm sure will help me staying alive longer in the future. I was very impressed with the skirmishers and scouts as well. The FC was top notch. There were a few times I missed orders, but I'll blame myself for that (trying to stay awake at 0800 in the morning after a long day at work and a long night of eve). Long story short: Nothing negative comes to mind. This was the most fun I've had for a while in EvE and I'll be sure to look out for the more advanced courses in the future.

[Donon]

Class was great. I was very impressed with the professionalism of all of the AGONY pilots. It has me rethinking my career as a carebear.

[Vora]

Sorry I could not attend class but I had to bring my sister to the hospital (broke her forearm, meh!) and had to play the emergency babysitter for her two girls, so I was AWOL from my computer until a few hours ago. After missing 3 enrolments and one class I'm quite pissed today. I wonder if I'll be able to attend a BASIC class in this decade... %-6

[Olozim]

In regards to the the theory: All of the information coming at me was nearly overwhelming, but I realize there's not really anything you can do about that. One thing I would have liked to see is a short, practical exercise mixed in with the theory, much like the spiraling technique portion, where we were able to practice what we were taught. One other thing that I think would have been beneficial would have been a small skirmish between classmates in 0.0 or low sec in newbie ships to practice battle comms. Seperate the class into two groups, assign a "FC" for each "fleet", and have everyone fly their Velator, Ibis, etc fitted with one or two EWAR and all guns. Stick some Agony people in with each fleet as observers and see how well the two sides do on comms, not really focusing on who wins, just on who communicaes the best (which will probably be who ends up winning...). Also with the scanning portion, maybe stick someone out in a belt or on a planet and have the class scan them down, make it a race to see who can warp in to them first. The scanning portion was a lot of theory and very little practical application for class members, although we did see it in action with the CovOps and skirmishers in the practical section. I realize some of this may go beyond the scope of PvP basic, but really I think it would only add another hour to hour and a half and would serve to help cement those ideas into our brains. Since I am paying for this, I would not have minded in the least to spend 4-5 hours instead of 3-4 hours on the lecture portion practicing what I had been taught before heading out into 0.0. In regards to the practical/gang: I was expecting a well-organized, "military-like" approach to gangs and 0.0. I was completely blown away by the professionalism and organization of Agony and our scouts/skirmishers, very much above expectations. Spinward was an amazing FC, and I felt very safe flying under his guidance (well, at least as safe as you can feel in 0.0 =P) Maybe safe isn't the word... I felt very useful and involved, instead of the normal gang where no one really knows what going on and everyone kinda does their own thing, not really paying attention and ending up on the wrong end of killmails. At the beginning things were a little shaky, especialy when like half the class jumped on contact when the orders were to hold. But towards the end I like to think we were starting to get the hang of things, there were a few times when I did not know why I was ordered to do something, and I really really wanted to start blasting people (itchy trigger finger? ), but I realized later why I was ordered to hold fire on one side of the gate or on certain targets, and I was very impressed with the knowledge and strategem used by the FC. Theory: 8/10 (more "practical" mixed in to reinforce ideas set forth in the lecture, like in the spiral approach section) Practical: 10/10 (really I don't see how this portion could get any better, superb FC'ing, superb scouting, superb targets!) Would I reccomend this to others? Absolutely!

[Sanfrey]

The most bizarre day I've ever had in Eve. When Bamar said there was an IRON titan tackled, I PM'd Caldak with "Bad Intel, we don't have a titan, do you know who's it is?"... See when I say I know nothing I MEAN it!! I've booked the titan for our next KLY-CO/7RM gate camp, and the weekend after it's doing a kid's birthday and a guest appearance on House as a 400lb guy who never leaves home but has superpowers he can't control.

[SilverWyrm]

Meh... House will nearly kill him twice.. Cuddy will berate him. Foreman and CTB will get all angsty.... IMO House is in a downward spiral.

[Barmunk'dakul]

Enjoyed the wiki articles a lot of info in there to read and get ahead of time. Practical was well taught and enjoyed dimes insight and other agony members help. But what stood out to me was i been in 0.0 only a few times and nothing to impressive and most the time was waiting to die. The op was professionally ran and few times missed command but that was me more than fc. Never had so much fun in a t1 frigate before and would love to take more classes and would recommend to my corp.

[Vito Tanzini]

I found the class to be informative, enlightening -- and exhilarating. Eve is a very different kind of experience when you're the hunter -- even if you're one of 50 of them -- and not one of the hunted. I would absolutely recommend the course to anyone who feels that something is missing from the time they spend in Eve, because this course will show them what "it" is. One small...not even a complaint, really. Just a comment. It seemed like either Dime was in a noisy location or having trouble with his mic. It made it hard to understand him at times. It might be worth checking that out before he teaches his next class so those of us who are slightly hearing-deficient won't have quite so hard a time digesting the immense quantity of truly invaluable information he's presenting so well. Thanks Dime, and Spin, and everybody else, for a job well done.

[Vargate]

Yea, I enjoyed this exercise and was impressed with the relative ease that the fleet dealt with the various opponents. Toward the end I was barely awake however so was happy to leave when the op was over. It seemed to me however that the primary focus of the training was how to use guns. Being a missile pilot I would like to have some theory on that as well. Next time I sign up Ill be better prepared to fit into the Hydra team.

[Xia Winters]

Var - unfortunately guns have more theory behind them, not just to use them successfully (fairly easy in small ships) but also in training pilots in how to evade them successfully while getting in close. While missiles are a viable choice in PvP, their travel time makes them a poor choice when we're talking about hitting targets moving at ludicrous speed or at extreme range.

1. Is the target going too fast for my missiles to hit?

If you're trying to shoot a target heading away from you faster than your missiles move (max velocity) then they'll never catch up, never impact. Explosion velocity also reduces the amount of damage delivered, but I'm not 100% about the mechanics involved since QR re-jigged missiles so heavily.

How to improve: slow them down - apply webs, disable their microwarp drive or disable their speed mods by draining their capacitor

2. Is the target's signature radius significantly smaller than my missiles explosion radius?

If you're trying to hit a frigate (40m sig) with a torpedo (450m radius) then less than 10% of the maximum possible damage will applied (before taking into account any damage reduction due to velocity, resists etc). If you're trying to hit a frigate (40m sig) with a light missile (50m radius) then around 85% of the maximum possible damage will applied which is a much better outcome.

How to improve: reduce the signature difference - apply target painters, use precision missiles

3. CCP's guide to missiles

Created before Quantum Rise, CCP's interactive guide / calculator is still nice to play with and get a basic idea about how the variables interact.

[Spinward]

In regards to the the theory: All of the information coming at me was nearly overwhelming, but I realize there's not really anything you can do about that. One thing I would have liked to see is a short, practical exercise mixed in with the theory, much like the spiraling technique portion, where we were able to practice what we were taught. One other thing that I think would have been beneficial would have been a small skirmish between classmates in 0.0 or low sec in newbie ships to practice battle comms. Seperate the class into two groups, assign a "FC" for each "fleet", and have everyone fly their Velator, Ibis, etc fitted with one or two EWAR and all guns. Stick some Agony people in with each fleet as observers and see how well the two sides do on comms, not really focusing on who wins, just on who communicaes the best (which will probably be who ends up winning...). Also with the scanning portion, maybe stick someone out in a belt or on a planet and have the class scan them down, make it a race to see who can warp in to them first. The scanning portion was a lot of theory and very little practical application for class members, although we did see it in action with the CovOps and skirmishers in the practical section. I realize some of this may go beyond the scope of PvP basic, but really I think it would only add another hour to hour and a half and would serve to help cement those ideas into our brains. Since I am paying for this, I would not have minded in the least to spend 4-5 hours instead of 3-4 hours on the lecture portion practicing what I had been taught before heading out into 0.0.

Olo,

Thanks for your input.

It all comes down to the fact that PVP BASIC is just that: basic. It's really designed to give you a taste of PVP, confidence in your T1 frig as a combat ship and your first few steps down the path of PVP knowledge. There are other courses that delve deeper but you have to have the foundation first.

We try to balance learning with the practicality of Eve being a game. The changes you've suggested would be good and AGONY has internal training seminars that do much the same thing. However, you've undersestimated the amount of time required to both teach and prepare for a class. We know from experience that it would double the time it took to run a class and most of us simply cannot dedicate 12 hours to Eve much less to running a single course.

Another aspect is that these courses are a service to the public for which the AGONY pilots are not compensated for. We do it because we like to do it. We won't get many instructors willing to give up their fun PVP time to "work" at teaching a course.

[ziglot]

I enjoyed this class very much. I joined Factional Warfare a while back to start learning PVP. It was great fun and I learned a lot, but there were a lot of gaps in what I learned - ewar being a good example. Also, I have almost no experience in 0.0. I joined PVP-Basic to help fill in those gaps, and give me the pre-req's for the FC class. General Comments in no particular order: - The preparation material was excellent. Anyone who does their homework and learns this material ahead of time is way ahead of the game when it comes to the online instruction. - Spin did a great job as FC, supported by a very professional recon and skirmish group. - The 0.0 experience was great. Having never experienced or seen a bubble, I've always feared them, enough that it kept me from exploring 0.0. I've been trying for a long time to find a particular skillbook (Nanite Control) that I read on the eve-o forums you could pick up in Stain. The day after class I fitted a cov-ops and flew the 40 odd hops through 0.0 in the hopes of finding it. No luck on finding the skillbook, but the experience of the class gave me the confidence to try 0.0 on my own and work my way through bubbles and gatecamps to someplace I wanted to go. A few small suggestions for things you might want to include in pvp-basic: 1. Maybe you could go over weapon grouping with the class as a part of the practical in high sec - or even in the theory section or notes. It's not a big thing, but its useful, and many don't know how to do it. 2. Talk briefly about session timers and how they work. I noticed on two occasions people that got held at the gate because they'd been moved in fleet (or moved themselves) with free move. 3. Talk about station docking/undocking distances - maybe as a part of the practical. The question often comes up 'are they within docking distance' but I don't think many people know how that's determined. I know that all of these might be beyond the scope of pvp basic, but I thought I'd throw them in as food for thought. Thanks again for a great class. ziglot (PS - If anyone knows where to find that Nanite Control book, I'd love it if you could point me in the right direction. !lol )

[Laurentius]

(PS - If anyone knows where to find that Nanite Control book, I'd love it if you could point me in the right direction. !lol )

They are for sale in Jita and other trade hubs. They are ridicully expensive though (4-500 mill)

[Baka Lakadaka]

(PS - If anyone knows where to find that Nanite Control book, I'd love it if you could point me in the right direction. !lol )

Eve-Central

[ziglot]

Thanks for the help (and link). I was hoping to avoid paying top dollar and find the book at the source, but I got lucky this weekend and was able to pick it up in Rens on a Buy order for only(!) 295million.

By the way, I thought I should give more credit where its due for my 0.0 cov ops adventure mentioned above. In addition to the pvp-basic giving me the confidence with bubbles to head out into 0.0, I also picked up some practical tips in an article from Eve Tribune ( link) authored I noticed by none other than Baka Lakadaka. So, double thanks to you Baka.


ziglot

[Baka Lakadaka]

Thanks for the help (and link). I was hoping to avoid paying top dollar and find the book at the source, but I got lucky this weekend and was able to pick it up in Rens on a Buy order for only(!) 295million.

By the way, I thought I should more give credit where its due for my 0.0 cov ops adventure mentioned above. In addition to the pvp-basic giving me the confidence with bubbles to head out into 0.0, I also picked up some practical tips in an article from Eve Tribune ( link) authored I noticed by none other than Baka Lakadaka. So, double thanks to you Baka.


ziglot

I'm just glad people are reading them

Stay tuned - the upcoming changes mean I'll be writing again.