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[Feedback] PVP-SKIRMISHING April 5/6, 2013 @ 19:00


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#1 Greygal

Greygal

Posted 05 April 2013 - 10:16 PM

Second time we've run the revamped Skirmishing class, we definitely did a LOT better on time management this time! I'll post some sort of AAR after the roam tomorrow, but opening up this feedback thread so you can share your thoughts, ideas, suggestions, etc., about the class today, and the roam tomorrow!

What you do for yourself dies with you, what you do for others is immortal.

BASIC | WOLFPACKS | ADVANCED | HSSR | EYES OF THE KILLER | STEALTH BOMBRS | FLYBYS | SKIRMISHING | INTERMEDIATE

The only chance you get is the one you take.

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#2 ToranBrades

ToranBrades

Posted 06 April 2013 - 10:55 PM

Yeah, really looking forward to some feedback from you guys. If you got questions/remarks, put them here, or feel free to also PM me (on our forums here) or evemail me even! It was fun doing the class and flying with you - hopefully it helped you a bit and was enjoyable, even though I wasn't able to cram into the class everything that would come to my mind about "Skirmishing" ;) Oh, and I'll also put it into the PM thread there - if you want your gear moved back to Berta, pls check the PM thread. Tired Toran out :)

#3 Tonto Auri

Tonto Auri

Posted 06 April 2013 - 11:26 PM

I can only say that recon work was mostly fine. Quick moves, clear reports, patience... They got it right, I say. My personal experience was not on the bright side today, although I had a spark playing catch with a Hawk. Was in noobship, ~36km from him, when got a lock, and ~32km from gate still. Thankfully, I thought ahead, and was prepared. Warped out to a planet I was aligned, then crossed some corners, and finally got a clear line to the gate.

#4 Alice_Karjovic

Alice_Karjovic
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Posted 07 April 2013 - 01:46 AM

Thanks to Toran/GG/Roigon for another fantastic class and roam. Special shout out to Dzu for getting all those eggs out of that jam we got into. Here's some feedback I had: - the prereading was vey comprehensive and because of that I think the lecture piece on day 1 could have been shorter to allow for more practical practice - rather than the inties practicing on cruisers a little more variety might have been better, for example practice pointing an attack frigate/destro/cruiser/ larger ships. In this way we would be more prepared for the roam the next day and have better awareness on how to tackle different ships. - The feedback and the answers to some of the questions from students was great. Fantastic job by Toran and GG with this within the classroom chat - 1 last thing that may be helpful would be a small lesson on what target ships could do to avoid or get away from inty's in this way, we again may be better prepared to counter this - another thanks to my training partner, forgot your name but the slingshot maneuver was fantastic

#5 Socretez

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 07:37 AM

Overall the class was fine. I would personally prefer more practicals than what was done but that's just the way I prefer to learn. When you go about avoiding the gate camps what you should be more specific on are the best ways to approach interstellar travel; ie: going gate to gate, to planet, etc. For the gate camp practical you should set up a more realistic gate camp, the saber was fine but I think you could use more interdiction to help simulate a real gate camp. The reading was really well done in my opinion and made it so that I had no questions during the lecture section of the course. I felt as if it was almost unnecessary for the lecture section to be honest. To me at least, I felt as if we could've spent 4 hours practicing skirmishing than talking about what was already covered in the reading. Overall I was satisfied with the course, just as much as any of the others to put it into perspective. After this course I've decided that skirmishing is not my bag and I'll be excited to attend the Covops course. PS: Caracals destroy interceptors. Hard. I learned that yesterday :)

BASIC-20120427 - WOLFPACKS-20130201 - ADVANCED-20120418 - SKIRMISHING-20130405 - COVOPS - 20130420

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#6 Tay

Tay

Posted 07 April 2013 - 09:43 AM

I greatly enjoyed this class and was pretty giddy after leaving the roam too (though early, sorry, I forgot it's summer time and that I'm two hours later than eve now, can afford to have one extremely late night, but not two :( ). Ok, we got pretty much wiped by the vagas, but I felt way more ready to take initiative and just DO stuff as it came up than before. An idea that could incorporate Alice's and Socretez' input... instead of fixed pairs, put the tackle bunnies out in a wild variety of ships and have the inties rotate through the system. That means mostly typing in chats instead of voice coms, but from what we did yesterday, watching your shield dip down within seconds should be pretty obvious "communication" already (yes, light rapid missile caracal is MEAN). Also have ships out that are a real bad idea to tackle, so people can see why it's a bad idea. Experiences stick faster than words. I don't know if that would be possible with the gate camps too, setting up a few and having class fly in circles through the systems, trying to avoid them all (Say, sabre at the ingate, drag bubble on the out, bubble over the gate at the next in, catch bubble on the next out... a bit of everything). I would have enjoyed trying to run from camps a few more times. But keeping that many camps manned and at least somewhat defended from random visitors could get difficult. What I've noticed more than once by now: Could be helpful to leave a note in the basics class materials which "must dos" are basics only and why. Most basics alumni will orbit absolutely everything in whatever ship they are in ;) In total great class, great fun, want more :D

#7 Greygal

Greygal

Posted 07 April 2013 - 09:58 AM

Will comment (and write AAR!) more fully later, but did want to mention one thing about the gate camp/bubble practicals. Normally, PVP-SKIRMISHING requires PVP-WOLFPACKS, and we play with bubbles and gate camps at some length in the PVP-WOLFPACKS class. So this class is built on the assumption you have had the bubble/gate camp practical of the wolfpacks class already. The bubble/gate camp practical in Skirmishing is meant more to be a refresher, to see the difference of running a camp in a interceptor, and practice giving recon while evading camps/bubbles. As we haven't had very many wolfpacks classes lately, and this class is still in "beta" or "prototype" format, we decided for now to just require PVP-BASICS. After we have run it and wolfpacks a few more times, we'll be reinstating the wolfpacks requirement for skirmishing class.

What you do for yourself dies with you, what you do for others is immortal.

BASIC | WOLFPACKS | ADVANCED | HSSR | EYES OF THE KILLER | STEALTH BOMBRS | FLYBYS | SKIRMISHING | INTERMEDIATE

The only chance you get is the one you take.

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#8 Tay

Tay

Posted 07 April 2013 - 09:59 AM

Ohh, ok, I had the "old" wolfpacks, while bubbles were explained, we didn't run any then.

#9 Greygal

Greygal

Posted 07 April 2013 - 10:01 AM

I really should throw together a seminar that is ONLY about bubbles and gate camps :)

What you do for yourself dies with you, what you do for others is immortal.

BASIC | WOLFPACKS | ADVANCED | HSSR | EYES OF THE KILLER | STEALTH BOMBRS | FLYBYS | SKIRMISHING | INTERMEDIATE

The only chance you get is the one you take.

Redemption Road - Free Public Roams and Other Events!

Public Chat: Redemption Road - Mailing List: Redemption Roams

Roc’s Rule #286:  A real friend never lets you do anything stupid … alone.

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#10 ToranBrades

ToranBrades

Posted 07 April 2013 - 10:49 AM

Heya,

just chiming in a after a lil dose of sleep :)

- as for running camps: It's always a bit of a tradeoff there. Obviously, we can't/won't put ten people in battlecruisers there which can't do anything to an inty (nor would we have 10ppl times two to do that). Sure one could add maybe a Rapier and/or a Daredevil on top, but we had to find a middle ground - so the "Sabre+inty" was supposed to be the "true" danger, with the "pure Sabre" being the starter rather. Finding the right balance definitely is a challenge, but as much as I'd love to - GG is right that one could easily make a seminar purely on gate camps (being on the giving and on the receiving end...). I hope that the little we could put in here was at least giving the base idea of a taste. But then - if you feel/felt a specific thing wasn't clear from running those camps, please ask in class (or just ask now as well)!

- as for "pairing and tackling": I definitely should/will lose a few more words about how to run that one. Prob is that it always is the last part of the class, with the students as well as the instructor starting to get tired, so please forgive a bit - but I definitely want an article about "sling shotting", as that's one of the important things to do as the tacklee there.
We had been pondering "sending students from one ship to another" as well, but while there might be a few cases where ppl would have been okay with the feedback provided by "dropping shields", most of the pairs actually had conversation, pointing out mistakes etc. So that's a format I'd like to keep, as it gives you things to try out etc.
Ship types to tackle: Goes a bit into the above direction - obviously, having everybody have a selection of ten different ships there for 1-2hrs practical is impossible, nor would all the reshipping do good probably. With many ships, it would just be a "easier/harder" than the cruiser (and as I explained, I'd be very wary of engaging e.g. other frigs, as someone wrote), so we tried to aim for something that's a good combo.
TBH, again, you could do a whole class on "how to tackle", and it always pains me to think of what all I would like to add. I'd definitely like to make the "spiral on sniper ship" a universal experience - because those things are common. I want the skirmishers to get away from "Shit, have to make sure they don't alpha me" from "Mmh, tasty snack, I hope it doesn't run away in the next 10-15seconds".

@GG: I don't think I'll ever manage to get down to 4hrs :)

#11 Greygal

Greygal

Posted 07 April 2013 - 11:02 AM

@ Toran: You clocked in at 4 hours 30 minutes!! I was thrilled!! :) Spot on! I doubt there is much more lecture we can pull into reading material, but I did record it and will go over it to see if there is anything else we can pull to reading material in order to increase practical exercise time. We do need to make a slingshot video!

What you do for yourself dies with you, what you do for others is immortal.

BASIC | WOLFPACKS | ADVANCED | HSSR | EYES OF THE KILLER | STEALTH BOMBRS | FLYBYS | SKIRMISHING | INTERMEDIATE

The only chance you get is the one you take.

Redemption Road - Free Public Roams and Other Events!

Public Chat: Redemption Road - Mailing List: Redemption Roams

Roc’s Rule #286:  A real friend never lets you do anything stupid … alone.

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#12 nuclear rabbit

nuclear rabbit
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Posted 07 April 2013 - 12:17 PM

hey, it was a fun roam - thanks for organizing it.

#13 Julius Tavers

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 01:26 PM

Excellent class - the huge amount of effort you folks put into this is obvious, and much appreciated.

I agree with many above that we could have spent less time on the lecture portion, because the written material was so well constructed. I think the really low number of questions showed how well it worked, and how avidly the students had devoured the content.

I would love a bubbles/gate camp class - that was the hardest thing for me personally to figure out (I plan to take Wolfpacks next, so that will help). Also, in the written material: I know you say it, but I think a couple of sentences really emphasizing that a bubble on the other side of the gate from you can still catch you. (I failed to pick that up, and the first time it happened was freaky.)

I personally found the one-on-one to be extremely instructive, and my pair-up answered questions non-stop, and even tripped me up by putting his warp-in next to a customs house (roigon: "I might have done that on purpose..." :P).

Slingshotting: the one-on-one was very helpful on this, as I already knew how to slingshot but not how to see one coming. A video would be great for preparation, but having the one-on-one's make it a primary topic is a nice complement.

Finally, I felt kind of crippled by not having any TACs. I haven't got any great ideas on how to solve this - maybe a shared set of "classroom" TACs for a mini-roam? Definitely makes me want to spend a week before the next class building up a folder of bookmarks in the general area...

Again, excellent and thanks for all the hard work and preparation. I will definitely plan to do another one as an alumnus to get more practice at skirmishing.

#14 Kynric

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 02:03 AM

Really good class, great experience and much thanks to the writers, organizers, teachers and mentors. I can't thank ya'll enough for this terrific service. I can't think of any content which I would have liked less detail on. Everything was spot on. The only thing which might improve it is if the class and the practical were 1 week apart. That would have allowed me a week to practice things on my own and by practicing find things I should have asked questions about. Anyway, great class and many thanks. I will recommend it highly to my team.

#15 sajaK

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 05:41 AM

Great class. With the reading material and pre recorded lecture there werent many questions. I got lucky to be teamed up with an agony member who had one of the ships the students were not suposed to bring. So I did see how hard it could get and got some practice escaping when you get neuted. I think more variety of target ships with help of agony members who know how to fly would help. If i were in his ship who ever was with me would not have gotten the same practice because I dont know how to fly a fast cruiser like that. prehaps 5 agony member each flying a differnt kind of ship could work with 2 studenst giving them a few minutes to see the difernce in how to handel catching differnt classes of ships and having some sniper ships ready to practice spiraling. for spiraling you can have 1/2 the class at a time practice on one ship by just having one turrent targeting each student . 15 minutes per half wont take long to get the whole class practice. I would also like fast cruiser, HIC , bomber (dont we all want to catch them?) a bc(hurricanes since they seem to be common out there) and maybe a destroyer, I dont think we need to practice tackle on battleships. for one other than ratting there just werent any and second if you can tackle any of thoes other ships you can handel a battleship fine. The notes said to bring cruisers that would not be to hard to tackle but i think thats excatly what we should bring, thsi isnt pvp basic and the challenge will help build skills better than making it seem easier than it is. Also with 2 students per agony meber we can keep it all in the system with the station, overheating constantly its easier to repair if you dont have to go to the next system to do it. I think this is resonable and would take no more than 2 hours, 1/2 the class, i have see how much turn out you get from you members and I doubt you will find any shortage of peopel who are adept with those ships to help with class. other than that wheres teh sell checker on this? I know its loaded with typoes :) SPecial thanks to LOWKEY for partering with me and DZU for herding us out. PS I read taves suggestion on TACs and I agree. it realy slowed me down tryign to make then while +1'ng for teh first time. I dont think all systemes would be feasible but maybe a few to get us started so we can focus on reporting untill we get that down and then take us out of teh "comfort pre taced zone" after we get a handel on reporting. TACs could be kept secret untill we start class and contracted to each student during fleet up. its a little extra work but I knwo you are making and deleting these things often.

#16 ToranBrades

ToranBrades

Posted 09 April 2013 - 05:55 AM

Re: Target ships - I'm not yet happy with how the practice went (overall it was good in most cases, but we want to prepare ppl better). The cruisers should not be too hard to tackle - that's a difference, that's why I rejected the armor bricks some ppl were about to bring :) E.g. a fast Stabber is just too much a PITA to tackle.
Oh, and tackling a bomber is no challenge once you have locked it, HICs are the same as cruisers (depends on how they're tanked - just less damagy) and BCs are just slightly slower and potentially hit harder. Cruisers really are a good base for tackling, with the other ships just being some nuances off it.
Oh, and we had a sniping ship for practice, everybody was free to practice on it - but yeah, I aim to make it "mandatory" for everybody next time.

Re: TACs - admitted, I'm a bit set on this :P While noone will deny that TACs are handy to have, I pretty much feel that people should learn how to operate without them. If you get them later, you'll enjoy the extra luxury, but you practiced it the right, not the easy way.

@all students - not yet set on it, just polling: How feasible would it have been for you to have 1-2 days between class and roam, and could/would you have taken the time in between for "practice", or is that just an idea that sounds nice?

#17 Greygal

Greygal

Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:01 AM

I am actually considering reading material that more thoroughly covers how to travel in nullsec without tacs... a big part of skirmishing is going blindly into the unknown, so as Toran says above tac's are a luxury. But there has been enough feedback on the issue of tac's for me to believe that it is something we need to either cover better before the class, or (if possible!) include a brief practical on the various ways to move without tac's in nullsec. Or a video on it :) (me wonders how many more of my tac's were "borrowed" this roam lol!) The reason we don't do 2 students per Agony is that we want you to have that one-on-one experience, it's invaluable. However, it's not a bad idea for us to consider letting people swap partners once or twice, so as to get multiple experiences! @Toran re: "@all students - not yet set on it, just polling: How feasible would it have been for you to have 1-2 days between class and roam, and could/would you have taken the time in between for "practice", or is that just an idea that sounds nice?" - Do you want me to add a poll to this feedback thread? (I don't even want to think about the scheduling nightmare it would create lol! ...)

What you do for yourself dies with you, what you do for others is immortal.

BASIC | WOLFPACKS | ADVANCED | HSSR | EYES OF THE KILLER | STEALTH BOMBRS | FLYBYS | SKIRMISHING | INTERMEDIATE

The only chance you get is the one you take.

Redemption Road - Free Public Roams and Other Events!

Public Chat: Redemption Road - Mailing List: Redemption Roams

Roc’s Rule #286:  A real friend never lets you do anything stupid … alone.

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#18 Julius Tavers

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 08:55 PM

include a brief practical on the various ways to move without tac's in nullsec.

Or a video on it :)


I understand your point on doing it w/o TACs - how would you build up your TAC folder without knowing how to do it "virgin"? Kind of learned some of how to do it a bit on the roam, so I feel better about it now. But I agree, with a modest amount of written/video material, a few tips & tricks would be helpful. Especially the case (which seemed to happen a lot): "OK, you just entered system and you're 20+ AU from the gate you want to exit from; what now?"

As to poll: I wouldn't especially mind a day in-between. But I don't think I would have practiced, primarily because I don't think at the end of one day I felt confident enough to go flying around nullsec without a fleet at my back. It would have to be enough in-between time so that I could jump back to my implanted clone and then back to the cheap one for 2nd day of class - so as to minimize skill queue delay.

#19 Vansen

Vansen

Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:00 AM

I really liked the class (missed the roam due to a trip to the zoo and returning late). Very interesting things to learn and a lot of them. Practice part was great, although I was the tacklee not the tackler but that gave me a chance to try catching the tackler. Recon part .. looking forward to the COVOPS class and the other classes as well
Vansen

#20 Sanfrey

Sanfrey

Posted 12 April 2013 - 10:41 AM

Sorry I missed this, it's one I could use as a student because I'm always nervous taking a skirmishing role.

Wow my classes were so long ago the link stopped working. Look I took a bunch of them ok? It was a long time ago. Just trust me on it.
Radioactive cats have 18 half lives. (Unless in a box, in which case they have half a chance of having no half lives.) 


#21 Julius Tavers

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 12:11 AM

http://www.amazon.co...0?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Will take up a high-slot on my desk.

#22 Greygal

Greygal

Posted 13 April 2013 - 12:14 AM

http://www.amazon.co...0?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Will take up a high-slot on my desk.


lol! I actually had one of those on my desk for over a year, until it accidentally got broken :) Now I use a digital kitchen timer that I picked up at a dollar store for, of course, $1.00. :) The hourglass actually worked better in that it was more intuitive!

What you do for yourself dies with you, what you do for others is immortal.

BASIC | WOLFPACKS | ADVANCED | HSSR | EYES OF THE KILLER | STEALTH BOMBRS | FLYBYS | SKIRMISHING | INTERMEDIATE

The only chance you get is the one you take.

Redemption Road - Free Public Roams and Other Events!

Public Chat: Redemption Road - Mailing List: Redemption Roams

Roc’s Rule #286:  A real friend never lets you do anything stupid … alone.

m3gAb3q.png

 


#23 Tonto Auri

Tonto Auri

Posted 14 April 2013 - 10:20 PM

http://www.amazon.co...0?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Will take up a high-slot on my desk.

Aww! Love simple, yet powerful ideas so much! Always liked when people come up and offer cheap, quick and elegant solution for a problem, that about everyone around see as worth a big deal to resolve.