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Please Help Support NASA!!!


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#1 Nero Prime

Nero Prime

Posted 07 June 2012 - 01:34 AM

The following are links to a video and petition to double the NASA budget. It may sound like a lot, but NASA only receives 1/2 of a cent from every dollar from each U.S. tax paying citizen.
Lets raise it to a whopping $0.01!!!
The benefits far out weight the cost, and you never know, maybe one day real life will mimic EVE.

Petition
Video

The video is narrated by Neil DeGrasse Tyson, director of the Hayden Planetarium, in New York. If you're intrested his latest book is a great read.
Space Chronicles: Facing the Ultimate Frontier
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#2 Sever Aldaria

Sever Aldaria

Posted 07 June 2012 - 02:28 AM

I'm conflicted. I really want us to spend more on space BUT WE'RE ALREADY SO F*CKING FAR IN DEBT that it doesn't make sense.
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#3 Alistone Malikite

Alistone Malikite

Posted 07 June 2012 - 02:43 AM

Just think of it as a very small portion of the defense budget; the GALACTIC defense budget.
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#4 Old Toterra

Old Toterra

Posted 07 June 2012 - 03:00 AM

The US is the richest, most prosperous, country on Earth. It has been for a century, and will almost certainly be for another century. The US can afford a hundred NASAs if it wanted to. The only thing it can't afford is a continued lack of vision from it's politicians. Of course I am Canadian, so what do I care.
See you in fleet,

Toterra

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#5 Sever Aldaria

Sever Aldaria

Posted 07 June 2012 - 04:35 AM

The only thing it can't afford is a continued lack of vision from it's politicians.



Pretty much.

I'm just irritated about politics in this country
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#6 Nero Prime

Nero Prime

Posted 07 June 2012 - 04:48 AM

I'm conflicted. I really want us to spend more on space BUT WE'RE ALREADY SO F*CKING FAR IN DEBT that it doesn't make sense.


I don't buy the "It's too much money" excuse.
IMOHO, that's just short shortsightedness.

We spend more on social programs in this country than for NASA. The money but in to the program has at lest a ten fold return.
hink of all the thing we have gotten from the space program. Everything from Velcro to being able to preform laser eye surgery.

It's a very simple formula.
Space Program = Excited kids inspired to learn science, math, ect...
Excited Kids, grow-up to become Engineers, Scientist, ect.
Engineering, computer sciences, etc. are jobs that are current in high demand. And the demand will only get bigger.
The more "High-Tech" jobs that are filled here in the U.S., the better the economy in the U.S., which affects that world economy.

To put it another way, I send more money on game software for me and my kids in one year, than the amount of money that I pay in taxes goes to NASA!!

I admit hearing that it will cost $4 billion or so to send man back to the Moon/Mars sounds like a lot of money.
But that cost is spread out over time, 8-10 years, and the return on that money would be tenfold.
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____________________________________________________________________________________________

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#7 Nero Prime

Nero Prime

Posted 07 June 2012 - 04:52 AM

The US is the richest, most prosperous, country on Earth. It has been for a century, and will almost certainly be for another century. The US can afford a hundred NASAs if it wanted to. The only thing it can't afford is a continued lack of vision from it's politicians...


+1

U.S. politics are an embarrassment.
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COVOPS - 1804090001 (Class Admin)


____________________________________________________________________________________________

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

-AB1TA

#8 Sever Aldaria

Sever Aldaria

Posted 07 June 2012 - 05:34 AM

IMOHO, that's just short shortsightedness.


I'll admit that at -6 & -8 diopters, my vision pretty bad :P
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#9 Virto Nex

Virto Nex

Posted 07 June 2012 - 06:38 AM

Meh, space exploration and everything involved with it won't truly succeed until its almost entirely privatized. Once Branson and his ilk decide it's time, then it'll be exciting again. Relying on the government to do anything with that extra half cent is nothing more than wasted money imo. And getting RL more like Eve would be better accomplished by giving money to deep sea research...and putting more MT into everyday life.
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#10 Othran

Othran

Posted 07 June 2012 - 06:54 AM

I'm conflicted. I really want us to spend more on space BUT WE'RE ALREADY SO F*CKING FAR IN DEBT that it doesn't make sense.


No need to go further into debt - simply reallocate some of the budget agencies like (for example) the NRO get. The military spend on low-earth orbit dwarfs the NASA budget and has done since the 1980s. Admittedly a lot of the funding is "black" so reallocating it would be politically difficult - in that the govt would have to admit how much they spend now, which frankly would astound and horrify many Americans.

Simple enough choice really, spend it on the military or spend it on NASA. The military retains heavy lift capacity (Atlas V/Delta IV) even if NASA doesn't.

Oh and Nero Prime, your figures are a bit off the mark ;) You're looking at a minimum cash burn of $10bn for the development stages of SLS and $6bn for MPCV between now and 2017. That's before any launch even happens and frankly the smart money says that SLS will be cancelled before it ever flies. To put that figure in context, that's pretty much the entire NASA budget for 2013 which of course is currently getting eaten by the JWST cost overruns.

Your basic problem is that unlike the 1960s the military already has what it wants and isn't interested in anything NASA does.
Today's word is :

MORAL, adj. Conforming to a local and mutable standard of right. Having the quality of general expediency.

#11 Esbear

Esbear

Posted 07 June 2012 - 09:42 AM

The US is the richest, most prosperous, country on Earth. It has been for a century, and will almost certainly be for another century. The US can afford a hundred NASAs if it wanted to. The only thing it can't afford is a continued lack of vision from it's politicians.

Of course I am Canadian, so what do I care.


I'm glad I'm not an US citizen either.

It's not the richest most prosperous country, the moment the rest of the world decides to cash in their dollars from the huge trade deficit, loans and the oil sheiks want to be paid in Euros or any other currency because of a plummeting dollar value it's all over. It used to be one of the richest countries, now it and it's people are working their way into a debt so large it is an economic disaster waiting to happen.

But I am derailling, I say the US citizens themselves are perfectly capable of telling their politicians to say yes to higher taxes for the rich. No need for the poorest to pay that 1/2 cent extra when there's a, in my view, very unfair tax system in place.

Right, time to get of my soapbox now before this gets out of hand.

#12 Othran

Othran

Posted 07 June 2012 - 10:03 AM

the oil sheiks want to be paid in Euros or any other currency because of a plummeting dollar value


I doubt that will happen anytime soon, not with the 5th fleet based out of Bahrain. After all look what happened to the last Middle Eastern leader who suggested that ;)

The USA govt know that the second the US dollar ceases to be the world's "reserve currency" then all-out conventional war is the only option left open to them as from that point on the entire USA is bankrupt. So bankrupt it'd make the Greeks look like a thrifty nation who had a plan for the future :D

I confess to a sneaking admiration for a country which has persuaded the rest of the world to lend it money so it can maintain military hegemony over them. Not a healthy long-term position though.

Anyway way way OT.

If the US govt gave NASA half of what it gives Lockheed Martin/General Dynamics/GE/etc the USA would have a far healthier economy from tech spin-offs. I can't see that ever happening though.
Today's word is :

MORAL, adj. Conforming to a local and mutable standard of right. Having the quality of general expediency.

#13 Sever Aldaria

Sever Aldaria

Posted 07 June 2012 - 01:32 PM

Vito nailed it on privatization. Government is the worst way to spend money. I'm now remembering that a week ago a private company successfully completed the first unmanned mission to dock with the ISS delivering 8 months worth of supplies with successful return and retrieval back on earth. They want to expand their vehicle to carry a passenger so that it can be used as a taxi as well taking astronauts to and from the ISS.
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#14 Old Toterra

Old Toterra

Posted 07 June 2012 - 02:18 PM

Actually foreign owned debt is only about a third of the total US debt. As well US owns almost as debt from other countries themselves. It makes for nice talking points calling for a crisis on the news, but the economic reality of the US is nowhere near the doomsday scenarios politicians and the media would like you to believe. Compared to the truly dark periods in US history (Civil War, Pearl Harbour, cuban missile crisis, 9/11) the current fiscal problems that require marginally raising taxes to resolve combined with some spending cuts are rather petty. Unless you believe that your politicians are suicidal enough to actually needlessly default on the debt, put in place further tax cuts, crank up spending and launch a few new middle-east wars, the US should be just fine. I will now turn off CNN and try and pretend that is not what the candidates all seem to be promising ;(
See you in fleet,

Toterra

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#15 Maximoff

Maximoff

Posted 07 June 2012 - 02:38 PM

I will now turn off CNN


You are foolish if you don't allow fox news to be your sole source of news!

edit: To stay on track, petition signed. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

"It was the patient, cut-flower sound of a man who is waiting to die."


#16 Alistone Malikite

Alistone Malikite

Posted 07 June 2012 - 02:49 PM

the current fiscal problems that require marginally raising taxes to resolve combined with some spending cuts are rather petty. Unless you believe that your politicians are suicidal enough to actually needlessly default on the debt, put in place further tax cuts, crank up spending and launch a few new middle-east wars, the US should be just fine.


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Never underestimate the potential stupidity of a politician. For example evolution?
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#17 Old Toterra

Old Toterra

Posted 07 June 2012 - 02:50 PM


I will now turn off CNN


You are foolish if you don't allow fox news to be your sole source of news!


FOX news is not a news channel, it is a comedy channel. They have said as much. After this piece of crap--> ... they said it was all okay because it was a comedy show. FOX news = Comedy.
See you in fleet,

Toterra

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#18 Maximoff

Maximoff

Posted 07 June 2012 - 02:57 PM

Fox news: The more you watch The less you know

"It was the patient, cut-flower sound of a man who is waiting to die."


#19 Othran

Othran

Posted 07 June 2012 - 03:58 PM

Actually foreign owned debt is only about a third of the total US debt.


That's generally a "bad thing" these days Toterra. External debt can be repudiated or depreciated (inflated away like the UK is currently doing).

Internal debt means you have little or no options other than hitting your own internal market which ends up in a vicious circle very very fast. Japan is the poster child of internal debt and their economy has been dead (stagflation is the broker term) for 20 years now.

There are two things keeping US bond yields low :

1) The Eurozone idiots (Sterling is the same, lowest ever yields - since the 18th century - on 2,5,10,30 year bonds here);

2) The dollar is the reserve currency of the global markets.

Either of those changes then you have problems. Sooner or later the lunatics in the Eurozone will sort things out (one way or another) and then watch the shit hit the fan on debt costs for USA and UK. Edit - I dunno about the US, but the UK is moving debt out towards the 50 year mark pretty rapidly now.
Today's word is :

MORAL, adj. Conforming to a local and mutable standard of right. Having the quality of general expediency.

#20 Azual

Azual

Posted 07 June 2012 - 04:42 PM

The benefits far out weight the cost, and you never know, maybe one day real life will mimic EVE.


That's it, I'm quitting the space race.

Send me NASA's budget for one year and I'll send it back double.
Ex-Director of PVP-Uni, Eve Blogger and author of The Altruist
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#21 Sever Aldaria

Sever Aldaria

Posted 07 June 2012 - 04:47 PM

I hate to be that guy. But I don't think 9/11 should be compared on the same scale as civil war, ww2, and the feared impending nuclear war. Sorry for the tangent. Otherwise good points.
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#22 Bamar

Bamar

Posted 07 June 2012 - 05:01 PM

Just to offer the perspective of someone who worked at NASA for a bit. 1) Privatization is a great idea for simple/routine stuff. I love Space X, and they're perfect for doing things like fueling the ISS and taking people into orbit, but they're a space transport company, not a space exploration company. Doing something truly revolutionary does take a concerted public effort. If we want to go to Mars in a reasonable time frame then it has to be in some way have major government backing. Similarly a great deal of scientific research is funded by NASA, which again would not be done by a private company. Ultimately some aspect of NASA can be privatized, others can't, it's not a silver bullet. 2) NASA is too politically controlled. Too many programs are dictated by congresspeople who frankly don't know what the fuck they're talking about. Personally I think NASA would be far more effectively, even with they money they have now, if they had full reign over their budget and could actually invest in what should be invested in. A lot of money has been wasted of "cool sounding" programs of limited scientific value that were pushed by well-connected individuals. The reason the Space Race era worked is that the politicians set the finish line, not the route there. Nowadays there's no finish line marked, and politicians force NASA to go in 10 directions at once. 3) What NASA needs more than funding is a vision. As it is now NASA's mostly a grab bag of a bunch of different competing programs and efforts. What we need to collectively decide on is what NASA is supposed to do. Should they focus on scientific-research? Space exploration? Space tourism? Whatever it is we need to pick something, and then our goals should clearly dictate the budget necessary. If we just want to stay in Earth orbit and fuck about in the ISS then a small budget and heavy privatization is fine. If we want to go to Mars then NASA needs a significantly larger budget.
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#23 roigon

roigon

Posted 07 June 2012 - 05:14 PM


Actually foreign owned debt is only about a third of the total US debt.


That's generally a "bad thing" these days Toterra. External debt can be repudiated or depreciated (inflated away like the UK is currently doing).

Internal debt means you have little or no options other than hitting your own internal market which ends up in a vicious circle very very fast. Japan is the poster child of internal debt and their economy has been dead (stagflation is the broker term) for 20 years now.

There are two things keeping US bond yields low :

1) The Eurozone idiots (Sterling is the same, lowest ever yields - since the 18th century - on 2,5,10,30 year bonds here);

2) The dollar is the reserve currency of the global markets.

Either of those changes then you have problems. Sooner or later the lunatics in the Eurozone will sort things out (one way or another) and then watch the shit hit the fan on debt costs for USA and UK. Edit - I dunno about the US, but the UK is moving debt out towards the 50 year mark pretty rapidly now.


If anything japan is a posterchild of why being economically broken as a country doesn't have to mean jack shit. Japan has been doing for 20 years give or take, what other western countries have now been doing since 2008. Macro economically they are absolutely terrible. But their internal economy is just fine considering the absolutely mess they've made.

Sure there's obviously a lot of internal strife about it and such, and from what I've read the government is still doing questionable projects to inject money into the economy. But companies are still doing just fine, unemployment is reasonable, and a reasonable PPP, nothing to write home about but not 3rd world levels or anything.

Now the US is of course more of an import country then an export country, which could be an issue with a devaluing coin, but if the US economy would break it wouldn't actually mean the end of the world for the average american. Life would go on, jobs would still exist, a loaf of bread would just cost a thousand dollars. But hey, technically more millionaires as well if that would happen ^.^

#24 Nero Prime

Nero Prime

Posted 07 June 2012 - 05:20 PM

I'm all for privatizing the space program.
But even with Space X, I believe, it will at lest 10 years before the private sector can do what NASA does. (IMOHO)

Should we just cut NASA to the bone for the next decade then phase it out completely? Maybe, I don't know, there are people a lot smarter than me that might know.
In the meantime the U.S. will fall farther behind in all tech related fields.

But my fear, and that of many others, is that the next generation won't be motivated to pursue careers in science, engineering etc.

The U.S. was once the leader in math education. We are now in 25th place, and falling behind every year. (That opens up a whole bunch of new issues. That's not the point of this thread)

I've seen it in my own kids, and in others. The spark they get when learning about space and science. It would be a shame to lose that.
My youngest was diagnosed with ADHD, and couldn't/wouldn't sit still for anything. But get him watching/reading/talking about space and science, more specifically the planets he's completely focused.
He knows more about our solar system than kids twice his age. The joke at his school is, "If you want to know anything about the planets, go ask Tristan". (He's 7 by the way.)
So I guess this topic a bit personal for me, and it's something I'm passionate about.

I don't want this thread to turn into a political rant. I just wanted to make people aware of the petition.
Fill it out if you want, and if you don't, that's fine too.
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____________________________________________________________________________________________

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

-AB1TA

#25 Nero Prime

Nero Prime

Posted 07 June 2012 - 05:24 PM

Some very good points Bamar. Thanks for your perspective.
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A&W - 0271220081700 (Adv-Pvp #100 / Wolfpacks #16)

COVOPS - 1804090001 (Class Admin)


____________________________________________________________________________________________

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

-AB1TA