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[Feedback] Directional Scanner Seminar


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#1 Greygal

Greygal

Posted 04 March 2012 - 12:13 AM

First off, thanks everyone who came out to the seminar! I hope you enjoyed it!

Since most of the information about dscanning was covered in the video, we hopped right into answering questions people had, then covered some information that wasn't included in the video.

I demonstrated how the closer you get to a celestial, the less reliable and accurate the dscanner can become, because of the difference between the location of the bracket and the warp-in location.

We scanned eachother out a few times, Hector managed to be the most difficult to find (good job!) then played with busting a mid-celestial bookmark. During this, Akjon shared the knowledge that you can now have multiple "Add Location" windows open at one time, which makes it much easier when you need to drop a number of bookmarks in a short time while warping.

A few more shortcuts for setting range on your dscanner, that didn't make it into the video:
  • Replace first two numbers with a 6, and you have a bit over 4au
  • Replace first two numbers with a 7, and you have a bit under 5au
  • Replace first two numbers with a 9, and you have a bit over 6au
Please feel free to share any and all feedback you may have - good, bad or indifferent - so that I may improve for the next time.

Also, please let me know if you think this seminar is something we should offer again in the future!

This was my first time leading a class in Eve, apologies for my newbness! I thank you all for choosing to spend some of your Eve time with me today.

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#2 sovai

sovai

Posted 04 March 2012 - 12:58 AM

I really enjoyed this seminar, especially since most of it was practical. The excercise where we were given the name of a ship and had to scan it down in the system was perfect and, for me, really made the techniques click. So much of the time when you're looking for pvp, most of the time seems to be spent finding someone to fight. Being able to use d-scan to find someone in system very quickly is a major boon to making this happen, so I think it'd be very handy to offer again in the future. Thanks for putting this on Greygal, it was a great course. Sovai

#3 Greygal

Greygal

Posted 04 March 2012 - 01:51 AM

Thanks Sovai! I appreciate that! I was actually planning and hoping to get more practical scanning practice into the seminar, and looking back over how I did things, I think I could have set things up so we can spend more time scanning and less time waiting between scans :) For example, give people more than one target right off the bat to scan down so those who were fast, can move on to the next (hopefully more challenging) target, while those who are slow, I'd be able to help more. I do hope to run it again, it was fun, and even I learned a few new things :) That's always a good thing!

What you do for yourself dies with you, what you do for others is immortal.

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#4 Xi'ang

Xi'ang
  • Pip

Posted 04 March 2012 - 03:31 AM

This was an awesome class, Greygal. Thank you for devoting the time and effort into putting it together. I learned a lot and plan on spending a lot of practice time developing the skills and tricks you taught me. The only suggestion I can think of is maybe giving more information on how to set up the overview a little better to facilitate scanning. I kept getting lost in the clutter and got frustrated a few times trying to sort through all the scan data. There must be some way of making that easier? You rock as a teacher, by the way. I hope to fly with you again sometime!

#5 Greygal

Greygal

Posted 04 March 2012 - 03:52 AM

This was an awesome class, Greygal. Thank you for devoting the time and effort into putting it together. I learned a lot and plan on spending a lot of practice time developing the skills and tricks you taught me.

The only suggestion I can think of is maybe giving more information on how to set up the overview a little better to facilitate scanning. I kept getting lost in the clutter and got frustrated a few times trying to sort through all the scan data. There must be some way of making that easier?

You rock as a teacher, by the way. I hope to fly with you again sometime!


*blush* and thank you! I was remarkably nervous actually - didn't think I would be then got nervous at the beginning! But the nerves left quickly, fortunately :)

Yes, I can and will go over the overview more for the next one. We have several articles about overview settings in our Wiki, which are very helpful, but focusing more from a dscan point of view about the overview is a Good Idea™

For me, I am continuously altering my overview on-the-fly by adding and removing items from it, using the dscan results window. For example, I do a scan, and I see a ton of pos guns on it - oops, have the wrong dscan overview loaded! But I often don't want to fuss with loading the right dscan overview, so I will simply right-click on the pos guns listings in my dscan results window, and remove it from the overview. As I scan, I will remove more items from the results window as needed - and if I need to add something, I will deselect "Use Active Overview," click Scan, then right-click and add whatever it is I need (for example, moons) to my overview (then select "Use Active Overview" back on, click scan again, etc.)

My base dscan overview has stations, gates, planets, customs offices, belts, all ships, bubbles, wrecks, probes, control towers and force fields on it. I build off (or on) that as needed.

Hope to see fly with you again soon, too!

GG

What you do for yourself dies with you, what you do for others is immortal.

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#6 Jysella

Jysella

Posted 04 March 2012 - 07:10 AM

Great seminar, good practice...though usually my scan results aren't so crowded out in null (one very good reason that D-scan tends to flag in RvB - too many ships is space). The only thing I would have liked to see that wasn't talked about at all is the use of the system scanner to find carebears at complexes, but since there weren't any spawned plexes in our classroom system it would have had to have been purely discussion. Really enjoyed the midsafe-busting excersize - wasn't something I'd thought to try before, though there have been a few times when it would have been good to do.
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#7 Greygal

Greygal

Posted 04 March 2012 - 07:28 AM

Great seminar, good practice...though usually my scan results aren't so crowded out in null (one very good reason that D-scan tends to flag in RvB - too many ships is space). The only thing I would have liked to see that wasn't talked about at all is the use of the system scanner to find carebears at complexes, but since there weren't any spawned plexes in our classroom system it would have had to have been purely discussion. Really enjoyed the midsafe-busting excersize - wasn't something I'd thought to try before, though there have been a few times when it would have been good to do.


Thanks Jysella! I demonstrate scanning an anom at the end of the video, but ya, it would have been nice to practice that one. They are REALLY easy to dscan :)

The methodology behind busting a midsafe applies also to busting an offgrid tac that is in alignment to another celestial. The big difference is you warp away, then you warp back to the gate where the target's offgrid tac is, and just before you land, you drop a bookmark. Usually about 1,000km before the estimated distance of the tac.

For example: You have someone on scan between a gate and the sun, and they are around 1,500 km away from the gate. Warp to the sun, then turn around and warp back to the gate. Open up your "Add Locations" window in your People and Places. Now, watch your distance like a hawk... the moment your distance shows around 2,500-3,000 till "warp bubble collapse", drop the bookmark. This works remarkably well - I usually land on grid with them the very first time I attempt it. However, it only works if they are at a tac that is between two celestials... which is why Smart Pilots™ never have their gate and station tac's in alignment :)

What you do for yourself dies with you, what you do for others is immortal.

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#8 Ina Sabezan

Ina Sabezan
  • PipPip

Posted 04 March 2012 - 07:41 AM

I found the class most helpful and I was pretty impressed by the quality of the video that you put together, its a lot of information well presented. I could have done with a bit more practice, but I will just start scanning random people down, maybe that will do it. If you wanted to prepare more exercises, maybe it will help to just go there the day before and anchor named cans? That way you can make sure that the targets are where you want them to be (e.g. at least one around the planet with the 1000 moons :)) Also you avoid the warp to fleet mate shortcut... The other thing I was learning was how fast some people can find me if I am lazy and do not create a proper safe spot and instead just warp to a planet. It will keep me motivated to always create safes or at least be ready to warp out when (not if!) I get found. Thanks Greygal I will be looking forward to do a basic class with Agony soon.

#9 Greygal

Greygal

Posted 04 March 2012 - 09:57 AM

I found the class most helpful and I was pretty impressed by the quality of the video that you put together, its a lot of information well presented. I could have done with a bit more practice, but I will just start scanning random people down, maybe that will do it.
If you wanted to prepare more exercises, maybe it will help to just go there the day before and anchor named cans? That way you can make sure that the targets are where you want them to be (e.g. at least one around the planet with the 1000 moons :)) Also you avoid the warp to fleet mate shortcut...
The other thing I was learning was how fast some people can find me if I am lazy and do not create a proper safe spot and instead just warp to a planet. It will keep me motivated to always create safes or at least be ready to warp out when (not if!) I get found.

Thanks Greygal I will be looking forward to do a basic class with Agony soon.


Thanks Ina!

Anchoring cans as scan targets is a great idea, something I definitely will take the time to set up next time!

One thing I didn't cover (cause it's covered in our Basics class, and I really was trying to keep things focused just on dscanner and stay under two hours) are the various ways to quickly create non-aligned safe spots. Basically, you create a bookmark between two celestials - best to choose ones that are fairly far apart and somewhat out of the way of the bulk of the system. Then warp to that bookmark. Once there, warp to another celestial that is perpendicular to the path of the first two celestials you used. Drop a bookmark mid-warp, and you will create a bookmark that is not in alignment between any of the celestials :)

Hope to see you in a Basic class soon!

What you do for yourself dies with you, what you do for others is immortal.

BASIC | WOLFPACKS | ADVANCED | HSSR | EYES OF THE KILLER | STEALTH BOMBRS | FLYBYS | SKIRMISHING | INTERMEDIATE

The only chance you get is the one you take.

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#10 Sar Hasarin

Sar Hasarin

Posted 04 March 2012 - 04:21 PM

GGal

I admit it, I am awful at d-scanning. This class plus the video have helped a lot. I just need to practice a lot to make it somewhat efficient. Doing it under pressure with a snarling pack of corpmates wanting to blow something up is another matter. Thanks for the effort for a very useful class, I really enjoyed the material, the exercises and, particularly, the easy going attitude of all. Both students and you contributed a lot to the experience.

I would suggest a couple of changes for next time. Do not take these as being critical just suggestions.

1. Do not use students as "targets" for the hunt. Use Agony guys. I actually found Hectar early in his epic hide, but did not have him on my overview because I had not changed it from my normal one. I warped in (cloaked, because I always cloak!) and saw no ships on the OV and a fleet mate in space. I immediately, and wrongly, thought 'not him, warp out (especially when I saw the POS!)'. I would suggest using the Agony guys as targets, not in fleet. You can move them where you want and not have people "cheat" by warping to fleet mates. I admit it I did it once when my frustration meter hit the redline.

2. Ditto the suggestion above to spend some time (or in pre-class materials) in OV prep. It makes a huge difference and can eliminate much frustration, especially to newer students who may not know how to manipulate the OV as easily as more experienced pilots. This is true in spades for the tabs. I outsmarted myself by making tabs too finely filtered and wasted time by switching and trying to remember what I had done. Also would CCP please let you lock your tabs, please!

3. I would suggest minimizing the mid-safe part of this basic seminar. Pilots in fast ships that are struggling/learning the basics will find this very frustrating. I know I did and I have been trying to do it for 3 years. The only reason I found you in the exercise was I did a range reduction from the gate, saw you were close and did 7 (count them 7) bookmark warp offs by hitting the b-mark button as soon as I went into warp. If you had been at a more middle spot, I would not have even come close. This technique is really a reaction/twitch muscle test. Maybe a demo of how it is done and an explanation but less time actually trying it. DScan II ?

4. Spend more time with the hunt exercises. This is where most of the people in the class are in d-scanning and the part that will be most useful. Also maybe start with the exercise you ended with; start simple and work up as is done in the covert ops class. Using a less busy/crowded/"celestialded" system also might help.

Finally, I woke up in the middle of the night (yes, I dreamed d-scan last night) and realized that the "weird" short range phenomenon may not be weird but just a math problem that has to do with the scan cone geometry relative to the "distance" between the object icon and the warp in spot. I will see if I can do the math and get it to you.

Thanks again for the class: much new info and many things to think about. I still am an awful scanner but this and you will help me get better.

Regards
Sar Hasarin

#11 Garan

Garan
  • Pip

Posted 04 March 2012 - 04:22 PM

Very good seminar with some really helpful pieces of knowledge in scanning provided (the - being too close paradox was one of those). I finally figured out why I was constantly having problems when trying to d-scan stuff while tottaly zoomed-in on my ship. The exercise in negating between-celestial safe spots was a bonus, and now I'm looking forward to putting stuff learned into practice :)
Furthermore, I loved the class format. The fact that a lot of theoretical stuff was provided ahead of class and that the class itself was very much practice based meant we really had an opportunity to get our hands dirty scanning and see what our major mistakes in doing so were. Also, length of the class and the focus on a very particular, yet so valuable skill (which d-scanning is), were additional pluses for me.I'd definitely encourage you guys in agony to get more stuff like this going on.Loved your work as an instructor too, I have no dobut that your first basics will go swell as well ;)

#12 John McGuirk

John McGuirk

Posted 04 March 2012 - 09:42 PM

Finally, I woke up in the middle of the night (yes, I dreamed d-scan last night) and realized that the "weird" short range phenomenon may not be weird but just a math problem that has to do with the scan cone geometry relative to the "distance" between the object icon and the warp in spot. I will see if I can do the math and get it to you.


You can do the math, but there is nothing magical going on, it's pure geometry as you suggest. The cause is that the planet's grid and bracket are at separate locations in space, sometimes by tens of thousands of km. From a trigonometric standpoint, this difference is ALWAYS negligible at distances greater than 0.5 AU or whatever, which is where you are when you are scanning from another celestial. This is the normal situation when you're scanning FROM another planet or its associated junk (moons, poses, belts, stations, non-standalone gates). Below those distances (those that are more normal when scanning WITHIN a planet's associated junk (planet, moon, belts, stations, non-standalone gates), it CAN (but not must, as it depends on the arrangement of things as well) start to make a difference. Stacmon 5 happens to be a great example, because from either the Impro Station or the Customs office (can't remember which), the planet 5 grid is actually BEHIND you as you're aligned to the P5 bracket. That is, things at zero to the planet only show up on 360 degree scan, not 180.

I wouldn't stress it too much, it's kind of a rare thing to be bitten by. Since scanning is an information theoretic game, it's useful to know all the rules you're playing by as you're binning locations into "target is at" vs "target is not at." This is just one of those extra conditionals you need to keep in mind, depending on how you scan. The bottom line is you will NEVER* be bitten by this phenomenon if you narrow your target to a distant cluster (planet plus its associated junk), then warp to the PLANET to continue your scan. If you feel that planets are a lower probability to catch targets at and choose to warp to another of the fifteen junk objects orbiting that planet (rolling the dice to get lucky at whatever you think the odds are) while you continue your scanning, you should be aware of this phenomenon.

Keep in mind that you can always "warp to" and cancel after you're mostly aligned to get the direction of the planet's grid from your location if you've been stumped and suspect this phenomenon is to blame. I believe GG mentioned this during the seminar, but using the align command on a planet aligns you to its bracket, not its grid. Therefore, a warp-to and cancel is required, aligning will point you towards where you want. This is, of course, just to show you where to point your camera due to where your ship is now pointed, I don't want to confuse things and imply that having your ship pointed somewhere somehow alters anything to do with the d-scan.


* I'm sure there are exceptions to every rule, and I certainly haven't visited all the celestials in New Eden to confirm this. There may be some planets that are so close (most of the orbits seem kind of uniformly distributed in log-space, so I'm thinking of scanning between the sun and planets 1 or two/vice versa) that this actually can make a difference.

#13 cooperkhoo

cooperkhoo
  • Pip

Posted 05 March 2012 - 01:06 AM

This is good.It give a new pilots to understand further how a scanning work at its basic. I would recommend a reading material so this can speed up our understanding.

#14 Sar Hasarin

Sar Hasarin

Posted 05 March 2012 - 02:36 AM

I got bored this afternoon and did the math. McGuirk's explanation above is correct and better than the math. The "mystery of the disappearing target at short range" is just a geometry problem. The radius of the of the scan cone is x=R sin(s), where R is the range of the target projected at 90 degrees onto the center line of the scan cone and s is half the scan angle. If the warp-in point projection (at a 90 degree angle to the center line of the cone) is greater than x a ship at the warp-in will be outside the cone and not be seen. Increasing s will increase x until it exceeds the projected distance and the target will be visible. At normal scan ranges measured in AUs the cone radius is much, much larger than all the possible distances between centerline and the warp in point, so targets anywhere near the celestial will be seen. For example, at a scan range of 1 AU and a 5 degree angle, the cone is about 13 million km wide. At max d-scan range and a 5 degree angle it is almost 94 million km or .6 AU. Its only the rare cases of both target and scanner being very close that the "mystery" can happen. As they say on TV--- "Myth busted".

#15 Vora

Vora

Posted 05 March 2012 - 11:05 AM

Great seminar, GG! As suspected I learned a couple of neat tricks although I have a 6-year old EVE char. Believe it or not but in all those years I never got the idea to use the tactical overlay in the F10 map! Learning about the modus operandi from a long-time WH dweller was extremely informative (especially for a player of a highsec PvP arena). From my point of view this seminar had it all right: preparation, speed, speaker and level of difficulty were right on spot. Especially the fact that 90% of this seminar consisted of practical exercises made it join my personal list of "best of Agony" (alongside with Skirmish and Bombers which were also practice-heavy). This seminar should be a regular (3 or 6 months?).

#16 John McGuirk

John McGuirk

Posted 05 March 2012 - 11:47 AM

As they say on TV--- "Myth busted".


Indeed, thanks for writing it out!