49 replies to this topic

[AkJon Ferguson]

I'm with Rynnik. Scuttling vessels is a time-honored military tradition. (And FWIW, I've never successfully self-destructed in combat (unless a RvB roam counts as self-destructing.))

[Jysella]

But when a ship is forced to be scuttled the opposing fleet still claims victory.

[Goodvibes]

I just want an excuse to use this emote more

[Othran]

But when a ship is forced to be scuttled the opposing fleet still claims victory.

The argument is basically about proving you were the victors - ie killmails.

My personal viewpoint on this is that killmails shouldn't exist - really if you try not to look at your own record for a month or two then you will have more fun and be a better pilot. However we are where we are and its impractical to remove KMs.

So if any ship (NPC or player) causes damage on a ship which self-destructs on the same grid/in the same system then generate a KM.

Easy-peasy.

[Rynnik]

My personal viewpoint on this is that killmails shouldn't exist - really if you try not to look at your own record for a month or two then you will have more fun and be a better pilot. However we are where we are and its impractical to remove KMs.

So if any ship (NPC or player) causes damage on a ship which self-destructs on the same grid/in the same system then generate a KM.

Easy-peasy.

Exactly this, in my opinion.

[Vjorn]

Over the weekend, I was in a class 3 that connected to my class 3 system, watching a cap run sites on it's own. I was only one on in corp, but can dual box. Didn't attack tho, coz what was the point??? I support SD'ing resulting in KM's when in combat. I really liked Agent302's idea

[Alistone Malikite]

Today we caught a carrier anchoring a TCU... we brought more deeps and a local gang that was roaming through the area to help kill it. So the chimera self destructed. All we got was this podmail...

http://www.agony-unl...l_detail/76329/

[starborn]

If you get a chance to shoot at the carriers in wormhole space, I strongly recommend it. Wormhole space is often filled with big ships that people don't know how to fly- many won't even think of the self-destruct button.

[Ba'al Hadad]

I think it is fine like it is. It encourages people to bring greater dps to take out capitals. I think the chance of loot drop, however, should be drastically reduced, but not removed entirely. In science fiction the destruct mechanism is usually done by programatically modifying the engines someway to cause them to explode, not by placing explosives throughout the ship (like in consoles on the bridge). That would be dumb. This leaves the external areas of the ship protected by much of the hull which couldn't possibly be entirely incinerated, thus leaving some modules intact to varying degrees. Okay that's pretty geeky. I'm done now. P.S. I think they do put explosives in consoles on startrek to make direct hits more dramatic You know the console operators are thinking, "Damn those pyromaniac console designers!"

[Itkovian Beddict]

Why would you want to discourage small corps from taking on carriers (pointless due to self destruct as it currently stands)?

[glepp]

Why would you want to discourage small corps from taking on carriers (pointless due to self destruct as it currently stands)?

It's not pointless. It just doesn't generate a killmail.

The point of killing something is to inflict pain on the owner.

[Silas]

Why would you want to discourage small corps from taking on carriers (pointless due to self destruct as it currently stands)?

It's not pointless. It just doesn't generate a killmail.

The point of killing something is to inflict pain on the owner.

Sure, but the killmail is still nice.

[glepp]

Why would you want to discourage small corps from taking on carriers (pointless due to self destruct as it currently stands)?

It's not pointless. It just doesn't generate a killmail.

The point of killing something is to inflict pain on the owner.

Sure, but the killmail is still nice.

Icing on the cake.

I like icing, but I'll still eat the cake.

[Silas]

I just eat the icing... the cake is a lie (Can't believe I went there)

[Ba'al Hadad]

Why would you want to discourage small corps from taking on carriers (pointless due to self destruct as it currently stands)?

I was responding to the original concern, to remove self-destruct while in combat. I think it should remain like it is. This doesn't disuade small corps from killing carriers. If they ship blows up either way, they still did their job and there is a chance the carrier won't self destruct. A killmail, however, would still be nice.

[Silas]

Why would you want to discourage small corps from taking on carriers (pointless due to self destruct as it currently stands)?

I was responding to the original concern, to remove self-destruct while in combat. I think it should remain like it is. This doesn't disuade small corps from killing carriers. If they ship blows up either way, they still did their job and there is a chance the carrier won't self destruct. A killmail, however, would still be nice.

The fact is is does dissuade small corps from taking on caps

[Vjorn]

I just eat the icing... the cake is a lie

(Can't believe I went there)

heeheehee

I want the cake....

the icing.......

and the little cherries on top!

[Ba'al Hadad]

As I come from cobalt edge, I would consider agony a small corp, at least during my play time it is. We went roaming about and found a carrier. Instead of self distructing, the guy logged off. We were in a hornet fleet of 9 plus two kitsunes. we were there quite a while. We had the help of angel cartel. A bomber and hurricane arrived much later to get roughly 5% each of the total damage. Granted we're by no means an orthodox smallish corp, thus not very representative of small corp behavior, but we still got the kill. http://www.agony-unl...l_detail/76013/

I was in Quantum Cats Syndicate, a small pvp corp in faction warfare. We routinely went after capitals. Maybe non-pvp corps are disuaded, but small pvp corps will go after anything they can get their guns on at the cost of their ships. So I guess we can agree to disagree.

[Jysella]

But had the pilots of those two thannies gone for SD rather than logging we wouldn't have made the timers, not by a long shot. So instead of getting credit for the kills we end up with loot from one and an expensive lost hauler from the other. Having a SD mechanic is fine and even necessary, but allowing it to be used to avoid the embarassment of getting blown up by a vastly less-expensive force just strikes me as not fitting with the premise that actions have consequences, which is at the heart of everything in eve. Heck, the change to logoff mechanics that made it possible to bring those carriers down supports the idea that there isn't a desire to have a cheap way out.

[Rynnik]

It isn't a 'way out' if it still blows up.

[Granger]

It's a way out of not having an expensive loss against your name which some people are bothered about, and a way out of giving the agressor the killmail that he is probably bothered about. Back to the original topic - I have now changed my reply in the EVE-O thread to indicate that self-destructing should still be an option, but that it should generate a KM to the highest non-NPC damage dealer.

[Alistone Malikite]

But had the pilots of those two thannies gone for SD rather than logging we wouldn't have made the timers, not by a long shot. So instead of getting credit for the kills we end up ... an expensive lost hauler from the other. ...

For the first I'd just like to point out my kitsune to dealt 11,000 damage... do you realize how long it takes a kitsune to deal that sort of damage. If he had logged with the old 15m timer he probably would have lived.

And for the second; after he tried logging off (but it didn't work for him) we actually ended up with 2 expensive lost haulers, but only because the WH timed out and we were stuck 40 systems deep in null with an itty V... I'm still a little bummed that I lost my Caldak's "trophy loot".

But it actually was pretty common for carrier pilots to log off in hopes of surviving. This nidhogger tried it too (back when you would disappear after 15mins).

But now that logging off won't save them (rather it ensures their demise) I expect that self destructing will become ever more common.

If it isn't changed then small corps will likely be forced to work with other nearby corps to bring down larger targets like *these carriers* we killed with BDEAL.

I really don't care about having the loot (I'm pretty happy if I get a corpse though). But I want the record that yes he was caught and yes he was killed. A lot of corps are judged by their killboard record and it benefits the attackers reputation to have a record of big kills.

[Kerzack]

My train of thought doesn't "jump the rails". It flies in space and it's got an oversized MWD that causes it to fly off on tangents at incredible speed and makes it a PITA to steer. I like cheese.



- fucking win!

[Kerzack]

oh... and on topic... Stop sucking! get some friends with DPS (aka DeePs!@) (U know I love you but come on, catch and release is cool and all but speedie's carrier isn't going down until we get the deeps! ...i'll be moar polite next time!) how you doing ?

[Alistone Malikite]

... then again; if self destructing ships created some sort of "smartbomb splash damage" effect that would be pretty cool...no need to change the "mechanics"; just create a darned killmail for the top non-NPC damage dealer.