23 replies to this topic

[Caldak]

New approach for Advance. Included a closing Wormhole just as we were going to do the Agony V Winner group. With Basics its the same material you read that gets covered. Step by step. Wolf packs, its a little more depth in, but the material is covered step by step ie Exercise of the stuff in it, plus some more food for thought. So instead of just reading the material thru which you all read, we done some good discussion and theory crafting on. One point that came out was people were ship fitting while listening and got a bit distracted. Will remedy in future. ===================================== Day 2: Roam, got 1hr on early but things took forever. So no Agony V Winner fight. Off we went for a run around. A very strong Agony count in fleet. Was good to see. First fight came around due to the Agony part been chased up the pipe. They landed in a bubble behind the gate. Bad timing as we were at a tac on our way down to the gate. End result, those few seconds late. And in that they were 70K's off meant we had no good way to get there and help quick enough. Poitot first taste of a fight. 2nd was the big one in X-M, this really went well with a lot of Scrams/Points been called. But it felt as if the tackle was and Ewar was effective. The Pure madness fight could of been better, but we were totally out numbered. The jump onto a Carrier kill was good Back we went and played around. FIGL looked at us but they really were good on DPS. So in all a nice time to cool down in PF.

[Miranda Glade]

I always learn a great deal every time I spend time listening to Caldak, this class was no exception. This is my first Agony class, so I have little to compare it to, except classes from other corps. I'd like to see a few more Agony classes before I make comparisons. But I do have some thoughts: 1. There was some confusion at the start regarding fits, due to some ambiguous info on the forum thread regarding T1/T2 fits. I think next time it might be worth putting a set of rules up, so nobody feels like they get a raw deal, having to fit in the last minute. 2. Whilst I respect the intent to keep us from learning eachother's fits, and pair off teams covertly, I think we lost a lot of time waiting for people to get into the WH, and get ready to fight. I think this was mostly a result of having a big group of people who aren't used to flying together or under Caldak's directions. One alternative might be to get us to all undock at once, go through the WH together, and wait at certain planets, and just live with the fact that we all get a bit of intel on eachother. This might even include requesting all pilots to prepare 3 fully fitted cruisers, so that right after they finish their first fight they are able to jump out, dock up, and dive into their next one. 3. After the sparring sessions, it might have been interesting to incorporate the killboard battle summaries into the discussion, and had a chat about whether the winners won due to superior fits, tactics, luck, or something else. Anyway these are small suggestions, simply to help with timing. The content itself is great, and I think the way you discuss tactics by offering examples for the class to problem-solve and respond to you with is fantastic. I really think you should hand out some prize to Marvin, he did x up a lot! I look forward to tomorrow's continuation, and thank you again for inviting me along.

[Leonidas Tokugawa]

I think that this format of class is more conducive too people retaining what is learned. Plus it builds on the other classes and everyone’s experiences. For it allows other information too be shared that might not have been thought of. Caldak you were clear as too what you wanted during class and the active participation of students in the open discussion format was not only planned but encouraged as you attempted too get more to become involved in the dialogue. What I think kept the number of active students participation down was the fact that many were fitting or refitting out ships at the same time. And then once the teams were assigned the process of fitting for the team and tactics were being discussed at the same time as class. To stop this from happening in the future I would suggest that the class listing post the required ships a couple of days earlier and be more specific on what is or is not allowed as too ships, ammo and modules for each section of the practical’s where appropriate. And as a suggestion allow exactly one hour after the lecture/discussion part is complete too assign the teams and let them discuss what they will do, change fits if desired and be ready too move out. For day two you were clear on what is expected on the first section of the run as well as the information that the second section will be based on factors that will not be known until the run is being prepared such as what type of support ships are available. This I think will be an excellent application of the advanced fitting section of the early days discussion as some will need too modify fits or ships for the good of the fleet. Should be fun, informative and interesting. One thing I did notice Caldak is you had point on every single kill I looked at. So ... it was you who stopped me from warping away! Another wonderful class. Thank you. Now…lets go roam!

[Caldak]

Yea, just scanned people to make sure we stuck with format. The pointing was a joke for Magnus as we chasing each other up the kill board. Format is what I like because I do learn from feed back. There is so many approaches to a problem in EVE that you pickup tit bits that work for others and look how to apply it for yourself. As a whole Advance doesn't run as often as I would like, about 2 a year at the best. But seen so many faces take the time to turn up is really a kick and alot of you become almost like fleet mates in some ways.

[Leonidas Tokugawa]

As an aside; for myself, and I do understand I may be the only one on a constant IV drip being medicated, but I found us all being in the same fleet confusing once we commenced squad battles. When my four team mates were down I still saw purple every where. Those in their pods and the enemy. If all I saw was red I would have warped out a lot sooner once the day was loss. May I suggest that the teams be in their own fleets for this portion of class. You could even break off one squad only after scanning and then they rejoin the main fleet after combat. The communication part was perfect...it is just for myself when in a fight, to make the screen not blurry and stay awake, it is hard too tell friend from foe when all are fleet mates. Or now...in hindsight I learned I could remove my team mates from my overview....dooh I wish I thought of that before we fought.

[Greygal]

As an aside; for myself, and I do understand I may be the only one on a constant IV drip being medicated, but I found us all being in the same fleet confusing once we commenced squad battles. When my four team mates were down I still saw purple every where. Those in their pods and the enemy. If all I saw was red I would have warped out a lot sooner once the day was loss. May I suggest that the teams be in their own fleets for this portion of class. You could even break off one squad only after scanning and then they rejoin the main fleet after combat. The communication part was perfect...it is just for myself when in a fight, to make the screen not blurry and stay awake, it is hard too tell friend from foe when all are fleet mates. Or now...in hindsight I learned I could remove my team mates from my overview....dooh I wish I thought of that before we fought.

Another option is to put your fleet members who are your targets on your watch list, and target them from there

[Othran]

Another option is to put your fleet members who are your targets on your watch list, and target them from there

We did, or at least I thought we did. I wasn't intending to stick around for the fights, hence running around trying to get T1 mods that aren't 183746% over-price (price-gouging Gallente bastards that they are) I'd intended just staying until the theory was over to see what had changed.

I think it'd be better to kickstart the squads early on - get them to sort out who is FC and get a chat channel open within the first 20 minutes or so. That way there's plenty of time for people to chat about ship fits/tactics (or the lack of them ) and if necessary people can grab T1 mods/ships during bio-breaks.

TAP was as always, a good chat. I'm acutely aware of how having/not having intel on systems 2-3 hops away changes the priorities - flying with multiple scouts is one of the things which make these roams different for me. I find myself disagreeing with a lot of the examples Caldak uses as I rarely (if ever) know what's in the adjacent systems, other side of gate is all I know usually. That tends to encourage a "kill the dictor" approach so you're free to disengage if the targets turn out to have a load of buddies nearby. Its good to think differently now and then.

[roigon]

Had a blast, even though our little group lost our squad v squad fight. Especially after a good nights sleep have a lot of new idea's and can't wait till the next advanced class to restore my honor My only real complaint is already listed by caldak so i won't repeat. Other then that it was great fun and the discussion more interactive nature is/was great I think. I do have one idea, which may be a bit much, but today you have video streaming websites that let you more or less stream realtime what is happening. (justin.tv? i dunno) Perhaps if agony could position a cloaky on a battlefield and do some live streaming of the squad fights it could give some entertainment as well as a better insight in what is happening next to listening in on one of the squads FC'ing. Resolution would probably be shite, so not sure if it would just be giant moving pixels shooting lasers at each other, but just an idea.

[Smantis]

As an aside; for myself, and I do understand I may be the only one on a constant IV drip being medicated, but I found us all being in the same fleet confusing once we commenced squad battles. When my four team mates were down I still saw purple every where. Those in their pods and the enemy. If all I saw was red I would have warped out a lot sooner once the day was loss. May I suggest that the teams be in their own fleets for this portion of class. You could even break off one squad only after scanning and then they rejoin the main fleet after combat. The communication part was perfect...it is just for myself when in a fight, to make the screen not blurry and stay awake, it is hard too tell friend from foe when all are fleet mates. Or now...in hindsight I learned I could remove my team mates from my overview....dooh I wish I thought of that before we fought.

Another option is to put your fleet members who are your targets on your watch list, and target them from there

As an exercise it was useful to add our opponents to the watch list and target from there, but being able to quickly make and assessment of speed, range and who had aggression on you and who did not was very difficult from the overview with everyone purple. Trying to see who's drones were enemies and who's were friendly was almost impossible if they were not agressing you. We had to pick who we were attacking and then check to see if they were close enoug,h moving away or towards etc etc. So I too second the separate fleet just for that exercise.

Over all very good, and getting people to think for themselves is the real key learning point I think for advanced classes. Listening to the FC, but also each person with a role taking from that and enhancing it further for the benefit of the fleet.

Overall very good class.

Thanks to Caldak and everyone that turned up. The regular faces are starting to gel as a group of PVP pilots which I am excited to be a part of.

Eklest

[Orosono]

Our squad handled overview by making squad members have +10 standings and elevating that overview setting so they appeared blue. It was a little confusing but seemed to work well. I'll second that it was difficult listening at points because I was trying to fit a new ship and discuss tactics in chat. Making it clear ahead of time what will be going on and what ships/fittings we'll need would help. If everyone had four or five different cruisers set up ahead of time it would give more options for squads to choose their tactics. And something I screwed up on and hopefully wont repeat in the future, make sure I give someone the wormhole exit bookmark. Though I did find all the work to get out amusing.

[Marvin]

I agree, this format is way better than that just reading off the material.

I agree having the fitting rules up front posted will help a lot around confussion although around the modules I still don't know how some didn't realise "Class day, T1 cruisers - T1 fit only for your own practical." T1 fit means T1 modules. I suspect the confusion might have come in with "for your own practical" being interpreted as "for your own practical pocket" and not "for your own practical exercise". I voted against T2 modules due to fitting, I knew that I couldn't just upgrade my T1 modules without running into fitting issues and to have re-EFTed would have taken to long for me to get a compromise I was happy with.

I would suggest that you do give heads-up that you'll be expected to get a fleet working with your members you'll be assigned to and give a 30m 'break' after all material has been discussed to organise and fit.

What could have been nice was having some input from the 2 groups on what they think they did well and what they didn't do well before you gave your feedback.

I was though at the end of the first day a bit confussed as to what the engagement plans were for the Tier3 BCs, it only became clear when we refit.

On a side note, I'd not mind having some more Agony roams. Right now I know I won't be able to focus on Agony to join as a member but I do enjoy the roams with a touch more advance notice.

I really think you should hand out some prize to Marvin, he did x up a lot!

P.S. Miranda, it was good to be doing this class on my alt. Caldak didn't always realise it was me x-ing up so he didn't 'skip' me as much and as a work colleague that's atm busy with post graduate studies as well said. He doesn't understand why people are not participating in the class sessions, they are there out of their own will and it's just to their benefit.

[roigon]

P.S. Miranda, it was good to be doing this class on my alt. Caldak didn't always realise it was me x-ing up so he didn't 'skip' me as much and as a work colleague that's atm busy with post graduate studies as well said. He doesn't understand why people are not participating in the class sessions, they are there out of their own will and it's just to their benefit.

you're just too damn fast marvin

Often I'd still be formulating my thoughts while you already x'd

[Saelyre]

Indeed, Marvin was really quick with the x'ing. I tried my best, but I tend to overthink my responses instead of throwing out the first thing that comes to mind. I suppose this shows that I'm not familiar enough with the subjects yet.

Class:
[quote name='Marvin]I agree having the fitting rules up front posted will help a lot around confussion although around the modules I still don't know how some didn't realise "Class day' date=' T1 cruisers - T1 fit only for your own practical." T1 fit means T1 modules. I suspect the confusion might have come in with "for your own practical" being interpreted as "for your own practical pocket" and not "for your own practical exercise". I voted against T2 modules due to fitting, I knew that I couldn't just upgrade my T1 modules without running into fitting issues and to have re-EFTed would have taken to long for me to get a compromise I was happy with. [/quote']This was something of an issue, and perhaps stricter fitting guidelines could have been introduced.

In terms of format, I like the division of the reading materials from the topics covered in the lecture. Similar to the way lectures at my college are handled, you can learn a lot from just what the teachers post online, but much more from actually attending the classes.

---
Roam:
During the roam, I'm afraid I wasn't very good with the calling of scrams when I was given that task. I tended to get caught up with targeting primaries, scramming the guy close to me, dropping ECM drones (should've gone for DPS drones in hindsight) on someone else and maneuvering. Need to train up Real Life Multitasking. The fights were very educational and despite the stomping we got from Pure Madness, I feel I gained a lot from the experience of what happens when your situational awareness is flawed. Props to the two guys who took over target calling after Caldak got popped.

It's too bad I couldn't stay on for the tier-3 BC portion of the roam, but I was dead on my feet.

Kudos to my fellow students, alumni and Agony for another two nights of educational fun, and Caldak for being an excellent FC/instructor.

[Othran]

First thanks to all the Agony guys - I can't remember the last time I saw that many of you on a class roam. Even right to the death (05:00) there were still 8 of you there. Much appreciated. Also thanks for the iskies Alistone, already "re-invested" in another Broadsword - I didn't expect that but imaginary icelandic internet currency is always welcome Secondly this class - or at least the roam - needs to be run more often. I don't know what the demand/workload is for the class but I think its the most useful/fun of all the Agony classes, so its a shame its only a couple of times a year. I don't know whether it'd be feasible but since the roam always ends up light on tackle it may be an idea to allow Wolfpacks alumni to fly fast/heavy tackle on the Advanced roam. Lots of times people can't make/get on class but they can go on roam. The more that people go on the roam the quicker we'll all be able to setup for a fight. I don't think you'd lose students if you did this as Advanced is quite heavy on TAP, which is on class night. As far as the tier 3 section of the roam went - I think perhaps that section should come first, at least in Syndicate. The ships are ideal for gate/bubble work but if you don't have the traffic then there's not a lot you can do about it. Best to do it in server prime-time I think and then switch to whatever seems right for the rest of the night. As an aside I'm moving some large T2 bubbles to Orvolle just in case that camp happens again - don't fancy playing "regional gate bubble lottery" again Large T2 bubbles, couple of boosted recons for point/web/scram on gate traffic, fleet booster and a load of tier3 BCs - yes we can be uber campers In case there's any doubt about this I am only being semi-serious but just like last night sometimes its an option for a hour just to see if you get any attention. Might as well slap a couple of large T2 bubbles onto the gate for all the time it takes rather than playing "catch" in a Broadsword on a regional gate. Was a fun night but Syndicate seems a bit quiet these days. Is it not about time Agony went back to Curse? Catch/Curse is a nice holiday spot these days I hear but the flight there can be murder

[Marvin]

Secondly this class - or at least the roam

+1

Heck any roam I'd be up with joining in on. Ideally I'd like to see Basics, Wolfpacks and then interceptors / skirmishing as the next set of classes if I can put some things up for the wish list. Part of it is I want to 'punt it' for corp members.

[Othran]

Secondly this class - or at least the roam

+1

Heck any roam I'd be up with joining in on. Ideally I'd like to see Basics, Wolfpacks and then interceptors / skirmishing as the next set of classes if I can put some things up for the wish list. Part of it is I want to 'punt it' for corp members.

Well I'm thinking that if there's an Advanced class coming up then it might be an idea to run an alumni roam (or whatever) a week or two before class. The classes are so infrequent that people are bound to take a little time to get back up to speed, so a little refresher roam ought to make class roam go smoother.

I do think you need decent numbers of alumni in a variety of roles to make this class work well, especially if tier 3 BCs are going to play a major part. Again, a roam a couple of weeks before class would give a decent indication of who is likely to turn up and what they might bring/want to do.

Its all down to having the time for this though - although as alumni we could (and probably should) help out more with fleet admin. No reason why we have to wait for someone from Agony to come along to have a basic working fleet up, bonuses sorted etc. We can move channels on vent already - I had to hop through all the classrooms to find you on Saturday. Only thing we can't do for prep is start a new gang on Fleet Manager.

Anything that gets us undocked quicker has to be worth trying, although it wasn't bad on Saturday.

See you all in 2012 hopefully

[roigon]

here's a fraps of the fight that went well. Could have done better on my flying, but yeah. Also almost burned out my scram without noticing, as well as consistently calling my scram as point. Managed to stay alive though And I took waaay too much time finding a good target to tackle.

[Marvin]

Well I'm thinking that if there's an Advanced class coming up then it might be an idea to run an alumni roam (or whatever) a week or two before class. The classes are so infrequent that people are bound to take a little time to get back up to speed, so a little refresher roam ought to make class roam go smoother.

I do think you need decent numbers of alumni in a variety of roles to make this class work well, especially if tier 3 BCs are going to play a major part. Again, a roam a couple of weeks before class would give a decent indication of who is likely to turn up and what they might bring/want to do.

Its all down to having the time for this though - although as alumni we could (and probably should) help out more with fleet admin. No reason why we have to wait for someone from Agony to come along to have a basic working fleet up, bonuses sorted etc. We can move channels on vent already - I had to hop through all the classrooms to find you on Saturday. Only thing we can't do for prep is start a new gang on Fleet Manager.

Anything that gets us undocked quicker has to be worth trying, although it wasn't bad on Saturday.

See you all in 2012 hopefully

I was thinking more in the line of general roams but an alumni roam a bit beforehand will be nice as well.

On helping with the admin I am not sure how much we'd be able to do. I do know Caldak marks off attendance but I don't know if this is in an Agony app or just a text file he uses. Forming a fleet and inviting said members could help although I've always understood that there's always been agony members for that.

That said I'm all up for flying some form of support in classes that I've attended

[Silivay]

I thoroughly enjoyed the class; thanks Caldak, Agony and fellow mates. A couple ideas that I thought might help with organizing information and people: 1. Officially designate enemy fleets. Once reported in recon, the FC gives them a designation so that further recon can accurately refer to the ships. I've had trouble in the past knowing how to refer to "the fleet" coming through the gate. 2. Working out default roles ahead of time for D-scanner jobs and interceptors is a good idea. That way we are not doing the same job or, worse, no job. As an interceptor, I wanted to hunt for targets, but didn't know if you really wanted me with the fleet to catch targets or wanted me to roam ahead. I tried to get back to the fleet when I thought something was going down. 3. As a student, I'd love to know what you are thinking. To Agony, it might be obvious, but not me. What do you think they think? Are your planning on waiting on this side of the gate for them or go through? Are you planning to kite them? Which ships do you see as the biggest danger? I plan to keep flying with Caldak until he calls me Silivay and not Silvia - then I will know I have graduated Sincerely.

[roigon]

A couple ideas that I thought might help with organizing information and people:
1. Officially designate enemy fleets. Once reported in recon, the FC gives them a designation so that further recon can accurately refer to the ships. I've had trouble in the past knowing how to refer to "the fleet" coming through the gate.

I like the idea in basis, but it would require some diligence on the part of people to perhaps have a notepad next to their computer to quickly jot down these names, otherwise you'd run into the 'hi i'm ....' problem. e.g. someone told you their name 3 seconds ago and you've already forgotten. Something simple like 'pinecone = drakes + scimi' would probably be enough to instantly remember. But if people don't, I'd say there's a good chance they will forget the codename instantly.

However, for that same reason I don't think it's feasible. but who knows.

2. Working out default roles ahead of time for D-scanner jobs and interceptors is a good idea. That way we are not doing the same job or, worse, no job. As an interceptor, I wanted to hunt for targets, but didn't know if you really wanted me with the fleet to catch targets of wanted me to roam ahead. I tried to get back to the fleet when I thought something was going down.

This already somewhat happens, caldak asked for my veng. to stay with fleet for instance, but I'd agree a quick call off of expectations from different roles in the fleet would be good. Takes at most half a minute and leaves no doubt about where people should be and what they should be doing. I also think having dedicated d-scan/local watchers is good. I already have a healthy OCD with d-scan, but the benefit of being "officially" dubbed as being the d-scan group also makes it my responsibility, which in turn makes me work harder at it, mention sightings earlier and actively d-scan interesting things down to locations.

I think in normal fleets where everyone knows everyone this stuff is sort of implicit, simply because you know each other, so you know what everyone will be doing. But in agony classes and alumni roams there isn't that kind of implicit responsibility yet.

[Azgard Majik]

Most fun in ages. The class was very informative with Caldak expanding on what we had read by giving us expample to work out. You realise how much work has gone into this and how little I had actually thought about PVP and fleets till this class. I had never considered my own surroundings except for when I'm yellow boxed but it felt like a revelation when looking what was around you <<shivers at the prospects>>. I did let my team mates down cos I had trouble listening to Caldak and discussing our battle plan for the tourney so focused on the instructor. Sorry guys! Basic and Wolfpack are very good for an introduction to PVP and without them they'd, for me, make 0.0 a difficult place to live. Advanced really did open my eyes to listening to targets as well as your own situation...it was almost as if Agony slowed time; though you didn't - right? On another note; I love the new tier 3 battlecruisers.

[Marvin]

3. As a student, I'd love to know what you are thinking. To Agony, it might be obvious, but not me. What do you think they think? Are your planning on waiting on this side of the gate for them or go through? Are you planning to kite them? Which ships do you see as the biggest danger?

Sometimes there's not the time beforehand but I think it'll help quite a bit from advanced classes and up esp as an AAR to give a quick break down of the enemy forces their strengths, their weaknesses, what was considered the largest threat and why.

I plan to keep flying with Caldak until he calls me Silivay and not Silvia - then I will know I have graduated

Is this a heads up to Caldak to always call you Silvia . If going in that vein he'd need to start calling me 'Senitia', and long story short, I've somehow managed to fly in the same corp for most of my Eve carreer with a guy who's char's first name is 'Marbin'...

I already have a healthy OCD with d-scan

It frustrates me trying to get through a D-scan window when I've just jumped into K

[Othran]

I was thinking more in the line of general roams but an alumni roam a bit beforehand will be nice as well.

On helping with the admin I am not sure how much we'd be able to do. I do know Caldak marks off attendance but I don't know if this is in an Agony app or just a text file he uses. Forming a fleet and inviting said members could help although I've always understood that there's always been agony members for that.

That said I'm all up for flying some form of support in classes that I've attended

Oh any fleet setup by alumni would have to be for alumni roams. Nothing else.

For class it has to be Agony people or it looks amateurish. Although if you're in a squad leader position then you should be doing invites/re-invites anyway regardless of whether you are Agony or not.

[Sir Locutus]

Greate class and roam as always , thanks for Caldak and Agony for this. Few things i've noticed: On Class day 1. We should have separated time for discuss about fittings and turnament strategy. I was distracted by this and i think i lost some of the class 2. On turnament we could designate targets adding them to watch list but tjos wasnt realistic. With agony overview setup we have no problem with identifing friend or foe, this time was diferent. Roam: 1. After scimitar lost i was trying to get back to fleet but was too late for the second fight. Note to self find a time to get more syndicate BM's. It's hard to get through heavy boubled area without them. I see that with every Agony roam i have less problems with finding myself in the battle. Response is faster and more accurate, so my goal for 2012 is not to skip any Agony roam , class