33 replies to this topic

[Azual]

Vjorn may have beaten me to it, but there's a little more I want to say so I'll make this post anyway.

PVP-Basic is a great class, but we're aware of how big a chunk of time it is to set aside (both for you and for us). We also realise it's very theory-heavy, and while every section is useful to someone, there are usually parts which some of you may already know. Wouldn't it be great then if you could just have the bits of the theory that you don't know, and have them presented to you in your own time?

Well, that's the plan.

We're currently in the process of converting the whole of the PVP-Basic theory section into a series of high quality video lectures. These will be publicly available, and you can watch them in your own time before the class. This let's us spend the actual class time with much more of a practical, combat focus.

You can see the first prototype video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT8VqVcLDqc

Obviously once these are recorded, updating the syllabus would be much more difficult. That's why I'm posting this thread.

If there's anything you wish we'd included in PVP-Basic but we didn't, or if there's anything you think could have benefitted from more time of a different (maybe more visual) explanation, now is the time to say so. I can't guarantee your suggestions will make it in, but I'll be taking every reply to this thread into consideration as I put together the final list.

You can also download a high quality version from EveFiles: http://eve-files.com/dl/251060

[Othran]

Do it. For example your spiralling video is more than anyone will see on the class portion in space. Likewise anything that reduces the setup time for class. I'm thinking TS3/Fleet Manager - even people who know about it forget so a nice little vid on each helps. The major frustration for me as a student/alumni is how long things take to setup. I'm sure the same is true on your side. Anything which helps to prepare the ground and speed up the prep is more than welcome.

[Ceragor]

Very nice, learned new suff, thanks

[Greygal]

One comment I've heard (and read in feedback threads) over and over again is students wishing we spent more time on covering how to use the dscanner, and I think it would make a great video subject, too. BTW, I found the spiraling video fascinating and extremely well-produced!

[roigon]

I had to think about this for a while, mainly because it's been a while since I actually did basic. (well a few months, but still, more then enough time to forget) Looking trough the pvp-basic wiki page, am I correct to assume the layout will be roughly something like this. (obviously still in flux) 1. turrets/missiles and range. 2. tracking & spiraling 3. fitting and skills 4. Hydra principle & ewar 5. fleet navigation & fleet comms 6. bubbles and warping As for topics which I think could be covered in basic: - Some basic knowledge of overheating, not how to use it tactically but just mentioning it shortly and what it does. - use of d-scan. Again, probably not in-depth, but just a cursory overview of how it works. Perhaps including scanning for probes around you and scanning a gate. Other then that i can't really think of stuff that would actually fit in 'basic'.

[Freerunner]

Yes for the d-scan portion!!! I'd love to see the info plus, I'd like to see you wrap it up by passing the Agony 2 minute (or is it 3?) d-scan test, so we can see the high speed version of the skill presented.

[Azual]

1. turrets/missiles and range.
2. tracking & spiraling
3. fitting and skills
4. Hydra principle & ewar
5. fleet navigation & fleet comms
6. bubbles and warping

This is pretty much the plan, yeah (except you're missing safespots)!

D-scan is a good idea, I'll add that to the list.

[Eomar]

Very, very nice, Azual!

[Cujo Inkura]

I only just found your amazing website and forum and the possibility to follow classes. Does this mean I can stop waiting for that mail to come by which informs on the next PVP BASIC course ? Or do I need to be patient in order what will happens next. Really looking forward to follow one of your classes! regards

[Azual]

I only just found your amazing website and forum and the possibility to follow classes. Does this mean I can stop waiting for that mail to come by which informs on the next PVP BASIC course ? Or do I need to be patient in order what will happens next.
Really looking forward to follow one of your classes!

regards

That depends on how quickly we're able to produce the videos. PVP-Basic will continue to run as normal until these are all ready to go live - that would be 2 months, it could be 9, at this point it's too early to say.

[Bamar]

Also, keep in mind that the biggest benefit in PvP-Basic (in my opinion anyway) is the roam itself. These videos will allow us to cut down on the theory and focus on the important stuff (roaming around and killing stuff), so even after the videos are complete PvP-Basic will still be run, just in its new leaner and meaner form.

[Freerunner]

You might also consider, for whatever practicum portion of the class you eventually settle on, having the students break into smaller groups and scrimmage against each other. That way the participants get to be attacker and defender and can ask questions, advice, etc. while they're working it out. I like the idea of classes on SISI for the freedom it provides while learning. Its easier to focus when you're not worried about screwing everything up for the fleet.

[Sancho]

Wow... So very nice... Very +1 here. I would love to get my hands on these asap. Seems terrible that we would just give away something that took such an obvious labor of love... Pay per view anyone? lol

[Vjorn]

hehehe sorry Azual if I 'beat' ya to the punch (ok, not quite true ), but..... I really was --- THAT --- impressed with what ya'll had done.

I like the concept of video lectures for the various topics, enabling less time docked in station and more time in space.

I also vote yes on basic D-scan techniques being added to the basic class (after all, how is one to learn to hunt targets w/o knowing some d-scan).

I also believe that this video idea could be very useful for demonstrating techniques in the covop class (future project perhaps ).

[Kerzack]

You might also consider, for whatever practicum portion of the class you eventually settle on, having the students break into smaller groups and scrimmage against each other. That way the participants get to be attacker and defender and can ask questions, advice, etc. while they're working it out. I like the idea of classes on SISI for the freedom it provides while learning. Its easier to focus when you're not worried about screwing everything up for the fleet.

We generally don't have a lack of explosions, never judge students by their actions and fully support initiative, even if it happens to 'whelp' a fleet.

It's kinda an Agony thing - you have to get an entire fleet blown up by 'whelp?!?' before we really trust you as a true PvP'r... and although I've been away and might have missed an AAR I believe that I still hold the record for the shortest fleet eveh!

Therefore we'd rather shorten the lectures and get people into space and explosions, regardless of which side the explosions may be on! Every time we've tried to use SISI it has ended in tears...

Thus we keep the costs of fleets and ships low and just jump into the FIRE (No Other Destiny).


o7

[Kerzack]

Here is a very old video of D-Scanning... doesn't meet our current standards as you can't spam the buttons like we used to.

Agony tacklers always had the tappy-tap-tap-tap in the back ground of their vent comms... it was the sure sign of an impending tackle.

http://dl.eve-files....canning_101.wmv

[Altraum]

Hoy, I like it! Classroom theory is so, 90's. Maybee add a forum thread or something with some heavy presence instead of the classes, to those that have questions. Altraum...

[Azual]

Hoy,

I like it! Classroom theory is so, 90's. Maybee add a forum thread or something with some heavy presence instead of the classes, to those that have questions.

Altraum...

We'll still have classes, but they'll be much more practically focused. I see them as mainly comprising actual fights followed by discussion of why we did what we did, why the enemy did what they did etc, with the theory done in advance via the videos.

[AkJon Ferguson]

We'll still have classes, but they'll be much more practically focused. I see them as mainly comprising actual fights followed by discussion of why we did what we did, why the enemy did what they did etc, with the theory done in advance via the videos.

I think the videos are great but I think fewer people will pay for the cow when they can get the milk for free.

I wish places like Harvard would put out videos of all their classes. Hoarding knowledge is so 'Dark Ages'.

On the tracking part of the video, I think a question a lot of people will have (with or without realizing it) is: What's the best angular to maintain with respect to my own tracking? In other words, if I'm shooting a target with larger guns than me and my guns track at .1 rads/sec should I be trying to maintain a .1 angular velocity, a .05 angular velocity or ? (Speaking for myself, for a long time I tried to match my angular with my tracking and I don't think that's optimal in most cases.)

The reason I ask is that I think most people with a bit of PVP experience understand that they're doing full damage at optimal, excellent damage at optimal +0.5 falloff, ok damage at optimal + falloff and beyond that rapidly declining damage down to almost no damage at optimal + 2x falloff. They know that the DPS graph isn't linear and thus have a good idea of what distance to try to keep an engagement at. But I think people (or maybe it's just me) have less of a feel for where the sweet spot is when it comes to angular velocity vs tracking.

[roigon]

We'll still have classes, but they'll be much more practically focused. I see them as mainly comprising actual fights followed by discussion of why we did what we did, why the enemy did what they did etc, with the theory done in advance via the videos.

I think the videos are great but I think fewer people will pay for the cow when they can get the milk for free.

I don't agree with this, if I can taste the milk for free, I know the cow produce's great milk. To stay in your analogy.

I wish places like Harvard would put out videos of all their classes. Hoarding knowledge is so 'Dark Ages'.

indeed it is.
http://www.extension...ning-initiative

most other big schools have similar programs and i think if you have a [i]apparatus there's a special page on ituns that aggregates them all.

[John McGuirk]

Or as a bloodthirsty PvP devotee might think: the milk is great but that thing that it comes out of moves slowly, wears a bell, and of has 8 pounds of filet mignon buried inside it. Agony knows where the barn is and will help make sure the farmer with the shotgun dies trying to save the cow. And MIT has opencourseware, with many courses publishing recorded lectures.

[Bamar]

These analogies are getting too complicated for me. Bottom line is that we have a limited number of instructors and we want to free them up to teach cool, interesting stuff, not repeat the exact same curriculum over and over again. We think that in the long-run this will give a better experience for students (being able to go through material slowly and in smaller chunks, repeat things that are unclear, etc) and will allow us to do more with our limited resources.

[Azual]

I think the videos are great but I think fewer people will pay for the cow when they can get the milk for free.

You're probably right. Honestly though, is this a problem? It's never been about the money for us - if the Agony pilots supporting a class spent their weekend on a group incursion session instead, we'd rake in tens of times what we make by running a class.

The main benefit to us as a corp is not money, it's reputation. We pride ourselves in showing students one of the best times you can get in new eden, and those students go away and tell their friends good things about us. Somewhere down the line, we may run into those students or the friends they told under other circumstances, or maybe some of them will decide to join us. It never hurts to have a few thousand people willing to attest to what a good bunch you are!

And on a personal level, we run classes because it's a lot fun, and because it feels good to give something back to the Eve community. Providing this box remains checked, the rest is all elementary.

[AkJon Ferguson]

indeed it is.
http://www.extension...ning-initiative

most other big schools have similar programs and i think if you have a [i]apparatus there's a special page on ituns that aggregates them all.

ty sir

[Marvin]

I agree it's by far not the end of Agony PvP-Uni. There's way to many other great classes to go through, tbh if this speeds up people going through the basics class it opens the oppertunity for them give the more advanced and interesting classes more frequently. I for one would love to push our corp membership to go through the basics even I know for quite a few of them it'll be a bore as they are past 95% of the theory but just to have them able to join later classes.