26 replies to this topic

[Urichura]

I'm curious why you're fitting a targeting range script on the sensor booster when the ammo and other mods are such short range. Wouldn't a scan res script be of more value? Or are you expecting people to use longer range ammo instead of the EMP listed in the fit? Or is there some other advantage to being able to target to 50km+ when you can only hit at 10+11?

[Skrewed]

Yeah, bring some long range ammo too. I'll update the thread when I get home. The sensor booster is a bit over kill on the short range stuff. The T2 fit with tremor is really pretty nice (and was my initial thought for this), you get 36 optiimal and 11 falloff but you need the sensor booster with the range script. The alpha strike of 1200ish on the faction emp ammo is amazing. I'll also update to bring scan resolution scripts too, they can be handy and it's a real pain if you need them and don't have them. I'll post a 280mm fit too but it's pretty darn tight and needs some decent skills to pull off.

[Pesets]

Any news on that 280mm fit? Can't personally think of anything other than dropping the neut for an offline rep, in that case it should fit pretty comfortably with AWU IV, Engineering V and Projectile Rigging III or IV... [edit] Actually, no nevermind it won't, not without swapping out the locus rig for another ancillary (or the DCU for a MAPC %-6)

[Barret]

not sure of the proper 280 fit....but using the 250 setups as a guideline and the comment that the 280 setup would be a tight fit with decent skills... maybe something like this...though its a bit pricey with some meta 4 equipment lows: Damage Control II Gyrostablizer II mids: Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Sensor Booster II Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I highs: 7x 280mm 'scout' Artillery I Small 'Solace' I Bulwark Reconstruction rigs: 2x Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Projectile Locust Coordinator I

[Pesets]

I wouldn't add the Locus Coordinator to the 280mm fit. The 280mm already has the optimal of a 250mm with the LC rig, and most of the fleet will probably fly with 250mms - not much point in being the only one to shoot farther. Collision Accelerator, on the other hand, further boosts the alpha strike - the main advantage that a 280mm has over a 250mm. So i'd go with a collision accelerator myself.

Also, if you can't fit T2 280mms, fitting T2 250mm is probably a better idea than using meta 4 280mms. The increased cost isn't really worth it, and the ability to use T2 ranged ammo is arguably more of a benefit than slightly higher alpha.

And, as usual, a PG2 (slot 6 engineering implant) can really help find that last 0.5MW of grid for the Sensor Booster. Although, since there's now a high chance of being podded, i suppose you shouldn't rely on it unless you plan to bring a few extra ones to H6 Freeport. Or maybe they will be on sale...

[Vjorn]

Originally I wasn't planning on posting anything pertaining to a 280 fit; but since an idea was posted, I thought I would post what I am thinking about flying...with Skrewedup's blessing of course . Like Barret, I based this on the T2 Pawnmobile. [Thrasher, 280 Wolfpack] Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II 1MN Afterburner II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range [empty med slot] EWAR 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S Small Remote Armor Repair System II /OFFLINE Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Ancillary Current Router I [empty rig slot] Projectile Rig TBD First off, my fitting skills include Electronics 5, Engineering 5, AWU 3, and Projectile Rigging 4. I found that even with all level 5 skills, I still needed 2 ACR's unless I was willing to purchase a 5% pg implant (which I'm not lol). However, with my current skills, with last mid filled, and with a projectile rig, this fit uses 105.67/105.88 pg. Actually, the issue I run into is cpu. I can use a t2 RSD with 1.5 cpu left over, but for a TD or point, I need to either back down to meta 4, or use cpu implants. For the last high slot, I couldn't find anything that would fit, so I went back to what I learned in the last basic class and threw on an offlined SRARS for between fight RR'ing. Where I am having difficulty is choosing my third rig: Collision Accelerator or Locus Coordinator. Stats with Collision: Targeting: 51.84km Firepower 1: 175/1677 with RF EMP/PP/Fusion 11+11 Firepower 2: 102/972 with Tremor 39+11 Stats with Locus: Targeting: 51.84km Firepower 1: 161/1543 with RF EMP/PP/Fusion 12+11 Firepower 2: 94/895 with Tremor 45+11 Initially I was thinking of Collision 'coz that alpha sure looks nice; but after seeing Barret's proposal, I'm starting to wonder if I'm making a classic noob mistake by going for highest possible alpha, instead of better quality hits at a further distance. (yes, when it comes to proper pvp, I am still a noob ) Vj Edit: In the time that it took me to compose this post, Pesets made an argument for the Collision rig for me to consider. Sigh.....decisions, decisions.....

[Skrewed]

Here's a 280 fit that someone sent. I'm going to play with it some more this morning. Anybody want to start guessing what our biggest problem is as a fleet? What kind of fleet could give us some real problems? [Thrasher, AGU1] Gyrostabilizer II Damage Control II Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Fleeting Warp Disruptor I 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion S [empty high slot] Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I

[Vjorn]

I would venture to say a moderate frig fleet would eat us for breakfast, especially if they could drop right on top of us. The tracking on our arties is horrendous. Vj Edit: Also, a fleet of drone boats would put the hurtin' on us, again because of lack of track, as well as our lack of drones.

[Pesets]

KMB-25 implantss are also relatively cheap if you need an extra percent of CPU (they use the same slot as PG2 though, so you can only use them if you have enough grid). On alpha vs optimal... my reasoning is, if you aren't going for max alpha, then really you might as well not bother with 280mms in the first place, as 250mms have comparable optimal and better tracking. From what i remember, a typical engagement range for wolfpacks is expected to be around 20km. 11+11 is kinda short of that, so you'll want to burn towards the target either way, and the extra 1km won't really make that much difference. The difference between 36+11 vs 45+11 is more pronounced, but they're both kinda overkill, and the real question is how many people in fleet will also have the 280mms to be able to shoot that far along with you (and something tells me that a lot of people may just end up fitting meta 3 250mms, in which case their optimal won't be anywhere near 45km anyway). In the end, like many things in Eve, it's a gamble. You may end up in a situation where a bit of extra optimal is better than a bit of extra alpha, but the opposite can also happen. Considering that even with standardized fittings we'll still have quite some disparity in various skill levels, i think the difference between LC and CA rig is small enough to fall into that variability margin, so it's really more of a personal preference rather than something that affects the available tactics for the entire fleet.

[Vjorn]

hmmm Well written argument Pesets. Thank you

[Pesets]

Well, by the time i typed up the reply, Skrewed actually posted the fitting, so my posting is more or less irrelevant... but you're welcome On the "problems as a fleet" part... i don't know, one thing that kinda bothers me is that we as a fleet don't have a well-defined "long-range" optimal. And the EMP/Fusion ammo requires getting into very close ranges, which could be problematic if there's more than one target. If we run into a close-range frig gang we might actually alpha a significant portion of them on approach, and then we still have EWAR and webs... it would be a pretty violent fight with possible heavy losses, but hey, there would be heavy losses on both sides and that's what a good fight is... What i'd call "serious trouble" is when we're getting pwned without inflicting any serious damage back. I dunno, if we run into an HSSR-type bc gang, depending on the size of that we might end up only alpha'ing a couple bcs before getting torn to shreds. But a gang of destroyers losing to a similar-sized gang of battlecruisers isn't really a surprise. A HAC sniper gang could pick us off one by one without us being able to do much of anything about it, but that's also kinda obvious... except how would they hold us in place if we don't just burn to the middle of their bubble voluntarily?

[Skrewed]

Pesets is nailing exactly what I was thinking. Originally, I was wanting longer range thrasher setups, 250mm t2 guns with tremor have 36km optimal and 11 falloff. But the reality is that not everyone will be in a t2 fit by the class (that's also why I posted info about the class so early). I stuck with the artillery instead of going auto-cannons because of the range. With emp ammo you're looking at 10+11 and around 1000 alpha (on the t2 guns). The auto-cannons have amazing tracking but dismal range (1.1+5.8 for 200mm autocannon ii). The other thing, is that this class really isn't about ship fitting. It's really more practical applications of techniques that make or break you in null-sec. We'll keep most of the ship fitting questions here on the forums and leave some extra time in the class.

[Barret]

some day i should really train for T2 guns...they look so tasty. would make fitting decisions easier. not that i fit many gun or missile pew pew boats. but still its rather embarrassing that ive got AWU 5 and still cant even fit T2 smalls of any kind... some year ill get around to it Pesets...good call on the CA over the LC with the 280s considering we'll mostly be in a fleet with 250s. can you tell im not used to stat crunching guns... !lol Vjorn...i like the use of an off lined remote rep. its better than an empty high slot...gives you some flexibility. but the logi pilot in me just hates not having a remote rep being online all the time. cycling equipment on and off line eats up time i could be helping rep folks... we're so thin that it wont really help during the fight but it helps keep us mobile and ready to engage again while repping after the fight... of course since T2 guns arent an option for me i dont have to worry about their heavier fitting load so i can play with the utility slot more. decisions decisions. still, good thoughts on fittings guys...good job

[Skrewed]

Barret, you're only talking about 7 days for t2 small arties. Considering AWU 5 is around a month, t2 guns are pretty darn quick. For those of you that aren't really familiar with Advanced Weapons Upgrades, it's probably the first really long skill you want to go for. The 10% reduction in power grid for turrets and launchers really makes a difference. If you are flying amarr ships you can probably put it off a little in your training plan but for other races it's a skill you want to get sooner than later.

[Pesets]

some day i should really train for T2 guns...they look so tasty. would make fitting decisions easier. not that i fit many gun or missile pew pew boats. but still its rather embarrassing that ive got AWU 5 and still cant even fit T2 smalls of any kind... some year ill get around to it

Some year? Dude, medium and large T2 turrets are a pain, but small turrets are the easiest T2 weapons to learn. You just need Small Projectile Turrets V (about 4 to 7 days, depending on your attributes) and you pretty much have T2 smalls. You're talking about it like it's Titan V. It's a bloody rank 1 skill, train it already

Out of curiosity, what's even the point of AWU V without T2 weapons? :?

[edit] Doh, Skrewed beat me to it again !lol

[Skrewed]

Out of curiosity, what's even the point of AWU V without T2 weapons? :?

Barret you fly mostly caldari?

[Skrewed]

Totera's got a good short blog post about ammo types too, everyone should take a look at.

Projectile Ammo - Choices other than EMP

I tend to be bad about just loading up emp all the time.

[Barret]

i got AWU5 so i could ferry a few galent marauders for a friend who couldnt get into high sec. absolutely no other reason. ive avoided doing gun/missile DPS since i started eve. only thing ive avoided more has been mining... but when i decide to finally slam gunnery AWU is already done... maybe next respec in early spring...but i doubt it. id much rather finish all of my shield tanking training. get into the only logi and command i cant fly...minmitar. maybe finish the other 3 races battleships so i have access to everyone's carriers. at the moment im charisma speced to finish off my leadership skills. woo hoo for sucking at every other useful training! the back half of this year is gonna suck either training trade or slowly training something else... so what do i fly? i much prefer nos/neut specialty boats...drone setups (note to self...go back and train more drones skills some day)...logi...command to an extent...ewar (though i need to get better at some of it)...even the occasional disco BS. support roles and combat multipliers mostly. and the evolution of most of those skills is carriers. ...which again dont use guns. so guns and missles have always been a when i get around to it sort of thing. and i further handicap myself by not using alts. :alien: my Eve is not like everyone else's Eve...its special. not quite short bus special...but definitely odd

[CompleteFailure]

With my skills i was able to fit the 280's this way. No Gyro but the repper doesn't need to be offlined. I guess if i offlined it though i could fit the gyro, that might be the better way to go. [Thrasher, Thrasher 010] Damage Control II Reactor Control Unit II Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Sensor Booster II Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S Small Remote Armor Repair System II Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I

[Alistone Malikite]

With my skills i was able to fit the 280's this way. No Gyro but the repper doesn't need to be offlined. I guess if i offlined it though i could fit the gyro, that might be the better way to go.
[Thrasher, Thrasher 010]
Damage Control II
Reactor Control Unit II

Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters
Sensor Booster II
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I

280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S
280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S
280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S
280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S
280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S
280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S
280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S
Small Remote Armor Repair System II

Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I

Couple minor things:

1) Since you fit polycarbon rigs I assume you wanted more speed (and agility). Also, with all the rigs & T2 weapons you weren't going for a cheap fit either. Since you have PG to spare, I'd replace the Cold-Gas afterburner with a T2 AB if you can. That'll give you about 4% more speed.

2) Since your fit (with my skills) has PG leftover I'd fit a MAPC just to save isk, but it doesn't really matter.

On small ships MAPC is usually more beneficial than a reactor control. Reactor controls are 2-3x more expensive and require Energy Grid Upgrades V. On ships with less than 80 PG the MAPC also gives more PG, but admittedly the reactor control gives you 0.69 more PG on your fit than a MAPC.

On a side note, while playing with EFT I realized that the fixed +10 PG increase from a MAPC is actually modified by your engineering skill to give 12.5 PG at L5.


[Thrasher, Thrasher T2AB]
Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I

1MN Afterburner II
Sensor Booster II
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I

280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S
280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S
280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S
280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S
280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S
280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S
280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S
Small Remote Armor Repair System II

Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I

[Pesets]

at the moment im charisma speced to finish off my leadership skills. woo hoo for sucking at every other useful training! the back half of this year is gonna suck either training trade or slowly training something else...

I see... being pretty obsessive-compulsive about minmaxing training myself, i can understand where you're coming from. Still, if losing a couple of days on an odd "anti-optimal" skill means i get to have fun couple years earlier, i say screw it and go for it anyway. Just think about how cool your guns will look with all those orange lights on them

Seriously though, it's easy to cross that line where saving 1% training efficiency can take more fun out of your game than it's worth. And unless you're planning to actually do a lot of trading, half a year worth of trading skills really is lost training time, even if it gives you a better SP/age ratio.

Besides, i'm not sure there actually are that many skillpoints in all trading skills combined. You may need to train Empire Control and Interplanetary Consolidation to V as well to get the most efficiency out of your build... Also, it's probably a better idea to train trade and corp management skills on the "toon" character while your main waits for respec (though that of course leaves your main way behind on potential SP).

But in the end, it's your choice of course.

[edit] Yay me on sniping the second page with an off-topic post :grr:

[Alias Forgotten]

Urgh... I'm gonna have to delay training into a Curse so I can fly a Thrasher in the next Wolfpacks... The Agony has been unleashed! (whine) I guess 9 days of training isn't that bad in the long run. =P -Alias I just noticed that on the enrollment thread Skrewed says that the T2 Thrasher will take about 3 weeks to train... I'm pure Caldari so far and I don't see it taking anywhere near 3 weeks. Am I missing something? Min Frig to 3 - less than a day Small Art Spec 1 - about 7 days Or was he refering to a total new character also needing all the support and fitting skills (as in WU 5, AWU 3+, etc)

[Gavin]

Or was he refering to a total new character also needing all the support and fitting skills (as in WU 5, AWU 3+, etc)

Quite possibly he was. I can fly the T2 arty Thrasher already, but it's TIGHT with 280mm fitted. It's easier with 250mm, but still they're far harder to fit than autocannons. I'm looking at this:

[Thrasher, 280mm Arty]
Gyrostabilizer II
Damage Control II

Remote Sensor Dampener II
Sensor Booster II
1MN Afterburner II

280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
Small Remote Armor Repair System II /OFFLINE

Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I

And for me, it comes out at 211/212.5 on the CPU, and 105.42/105.88 on the power grid. I've got AWU 4, but only Projectile Rigging II at the moment. I could easily see it taking 3 weeks + to train all the skills needed to fit the modules as well as having enough CPU and grid for it all to be activated at once. As it is, if I use a Warp Disruptor II instead of a Damp II I'd be over on the CPU, so I might have to fit an F-90 instead. For a tracking disruptor I'll need to drop back to a named instead of T2, or risk using a CPU implant.

[Othran]

[Thrasher, 280mm Sniper] Gyrostabilizer II Damage Control II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range 1MN Afterburner II Tracking Disruptor II, Optimal Range Disruption 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S [empty high slot] Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I Fits with a cheap cpu implant. Alpha is 1700 or so. Tremor gives you 52km or so - I'd rather put a TE2 in than a gyro, but there's not a lot in it. Up to you whether you figure you can get your pod out or not - I'd rather spend money on implants to make things fit rather than meta4 mods, but that's just me. Edit - yeah TE2 is the way to go on this one I think. [Thrasher, 280mm Sniper2] Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range 1MN Afterburner II Tracking Disruptor II, Optimal Range Disruption 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S [empty high slot] Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I No need for cpu implant. Alpha drops to 1543, tracking is 0.135 so decent enough for short-range faction ammo. Tremor gives me 61km which is about right for targeting range (59.4km) assuming 10% squad bonuses. Up to Skrewed but the second fit here is certainly more flexible for range and has higher alpha than the "New WP T2" EFT fit posted for class. Goes without saying that if you can fit a T2 track then you can swap it for damps/points/etc. Edit2 - Othran isn't intending coming on the roam Skrewed so you can relax as that's one less person to say stfu to on vent Seriously though I could learn loads from Skrewed but not in the context of this class or roam. For those of you who do the class then welcome to a new world of "That's how they did that". Othran's advice is pay very close attention on class and don't really care too much what you're flying; Wolfpacks is a class where you can learn a stunning amount or absolutely nothing - don't let your ship get in the way.

[Pesets]

Up to Skrewed but the second fit here is certainly more flexible for range and has higher alpha than the "New WP T2" EFT fit posted for class. Goes without saying that if you can fit a T2 track then you can swap it for damps/points/etc.

Well of course it's more flexible and has higher alpha, it's a 280mm T2 fit and the class fittings are based around 250mm T1 The concern is that many students may not have the skills to fit T2 arties at all, let alone 7x280mm T2 arties. And i think Skrewed intended to post a 280mm fitting in the thread, but probably got distracted by something else.

So yea, the second fitting is good, but only if you mandate that everyone who signs up must have the skills to fly it. Which isn't necessarily a bad idea in general, but for this particular class it's probably a bit too late to tighten the prereqs since a lot of people have already signed up. It could also raise the barrier of entry to the point where the beginner players (whom this class is mostly intended for) won't be able to join. I suppose it will be easier to tell once we see what people will bring to the actual class.

But replacing the gyro with a tracking enhancer could be a good idea for the T1 fit. It would lower the in-your-face alpha, but bring the Carbonized Lead optimal closer to Tremor. It will still do pretty crap damage, but at least it will hit. I believe track enhancers have lower CPU requirements too...